American Democracy

[St Leo]

There's some disagreement about the date of the inception of democracy in the United States. Was America a democracy from the start? Can a line be drawn? Does democracy exist anywhere?

[St Leo]

Dammit. The form cut off two of my options:
( ) It's not a democracy without referenda on major issues.
( ) Vote Chiquita Banana for President!

Could a moderator add them? Thanks.

[Dinner]

Virginia and Massachusetts both had fully functioning (ok, fully for white male land owners) colonial assembles in the 17th century (I.E. 1600's).

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Virginia and Massachusetts both had fully functioning (ok, fully for white male land owners) colonial assembles in the 17th century (I.E. 1600's).

How can you have any kind of democracy (rule with the explicit consent of the majority) when the majority can't vote?

[Wycoff]

The US was never conceived of as a Democracy. The framers feared and distrusted democracy as mob rule. That being said, the founders were all adherents to Liberalism. They wanted to create a Republic consistent within the framework of Enlightenment Liberalism. They did so. The US has been a Liberal Republic since inception.

However, to be consistent with our current understanding of democracy (everyone gets a vote), I'd say that the US became a "democracy" with universal suffrage.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Virginia and Massachusetts both had fully functioning (ok, fully for white male land owners) colonial assembles in the 17th century (I.E. 1600's).

I was thinking more along the lines of country-wide practices. Universal suffrage was implemented in many states several decades before it became federal law.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Wycoff
The US was never conceived of as a Democracy. The framers feared and distrusted democracy as mob rule. That being said, the founders were all adherents to Liberalism. They wanted to create a Republic consistent within the framework of Enlightenment Liberalism. They did so. The US has been a Liberal Republic since inception.

However, to be consistent with our current understanding of democracy (everyone gets a vote), I'd say that the US became a "democracy" with universal suffrage.

yeah what he said. We're not much more than a constitutional republic, but we do allow everyone to vote for certain offices.

I would go with universal suffrage as well. Sure black men and women were still pressured in some areas. But overall, everyone could vote- at least in theory.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Geronimo
How can you have any kind of democracy (rule with the explicit consent of the majority) when the majority can't vote?

Well, Athens is considered a democracy

More seriously, it's a good question. "Democracy" is a word that requires a good defnition, which is not always easy. Robert A. Dahl has provided a widely accepted definition (though scholars are not unanimous to support it), in 8 criteria. I don't know them by heart, and I must go eat, but feel free to go look for them on google

[Imran Siddiqui]

The Articles of Confederation. I think the question of democracy is important. Are we looking at it from our view of democracy, or what democracy meant at the period of time. After all, blacks and women were not considered to be full persons at that time. So, that question is important to consider.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Geronimo
How can you have any kind of democracy (rule with the explicit consent of the majority) when the majority can't vote?

How did Athens have democracy? Democracy should be defined more by form than by universal suffrage.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The Articles of Confederation. I think the question of democracy is important. Are we looking at it from our view of democracy, or what democracy meant at the period of time. After all, blacks and women were not considered to be full persons at that time. So, that question is important to consider.

Blacks and women considered themselves to be full persons at the time

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


How did Athens have democracy? Democracy should be defined more by form than by universal suffrage.

Naw. Otherwise I could have a government where only members of a particular religion that constitutes 3% of the population can vote and claim that it is a 'democracy'.

Athens could only be considered a democracy if we declare that all of the non voting inhabitants weren't even citizens but just regarded as the equivalent of foreign non-citizen residents.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Blacks and women considered themselves to be full persons at the time

That's nice, but doesn't mean anything.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Democracy should be defined more by form than by universal suffrage.

To me, that's necessary to call a Liberal government a representative Democracy. Any Liberal government without universal suffrage cannot be considered a "Democracy"

[Geronimo]

Don't forget that traditional definitions aren't necessarily very helpful for this sort of discussion. We have at least two mostly unrelated interpretations of 'democracy' to contend with. One is the idealistic and constantly evolving 'democracy' as an ideology and virtue which has inspired revolutions and the other is a definition resulting from a sort of dry taxonomy of government structures which has had far less significance historically, except as a way of describing results after the fact.