At what point did German defeat in WW2 become inevitable?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by techumseh
There were crappy divisions facing the western allies too. There were a number of 'ersatz' units in Italy and a large number of static divisions in France, some comprised of paroled Russian POW's

That's not a completely accurate picture. While it is true that many of the static coast defense units were made up of the bottom of the barrel, there were quite a few elite mobile formations in the West by June 1944. While by 1944 all German formations not on an active front were invlolved in training new personnel, they were more likely to have a higher percentage of their TO&E strength as they were not being whittled away daily in combat.

Here's a table showing the disposition of German forces in June 1944 as the Germans braced for the Allied landings in the West:

By June 1944, the Wehrmacht was deployed approximately as follows:

Army
Divisions / Operational Aircraft
Russian front 140 / 1,040
France and the Low Countries 58 / 1,100
Italy 23 / 260
Balkans 26 / 210
Denmark 5 / 50
Germany 13 / (a)1,440
Total 265 / 4,100

(a) Most of the aircraft in Germany were employed in the west.

(From: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/...Europe1-2.html)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
And 1 for 1 at kicking America's ass. Canada rules!!!

They never kicked our ass. Their British masters burnt our capital.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

Had the Germans forced the Soviets to capitulate the war still might not have been lost. The Germans were already facing growing rebellions in the conquered territories. Even if they managed to force the Russians to cede the Caucasus oil fields there is no guarantee that the resistance would have allowed them to profit from it. In fact the Nazis already had a track record of being extraordinarily inefficient at taping into the resources of their conquered lands. Eventually guerilla warfare would have taken as much toll on the Wehrmacht as the Red Army. That and eventually the US would have developed atomic weapons.

Well, perhaps, but of course, the Germans were preparing to let 30-40 million of these people starve to death anyways, so perhaps through unnatural depopulation they would have solved this issue.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


They never kicked our ass. Their British masters burnt our capital.

Most of the battles of that war were fought with similar numbers of British regulars and Canadian militia, and the most numerically embarrassing defeat the US received (in a war filled with their numerically embarrassing defeats), the Battle of the Chateauguay, involved no British regulars at all.

[Saras]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


They never kicked our ass. Their British masters burnt our capital.

Che teh PATRIOT!

USA!

[Patroklos]

At the time of the Normandy landings, the Yugoslav partisans were holding down more German divisions than 2 Allied armies in Italy.

Go to Feldgrau and check which divisions those were. Almost all were "police" divisions or the ethnic SS divisions. The best of these were at half strength, and the average police division only had half the normal complement of men at 100% strength.

Regarding the productivity of the occupied areas, I tend to agree more with Strangelove than Pat

If you can't agree with facts, then I guess I wasn't going to convince you anyways.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Most of the ... [insert Canadian BS here] ... at all.

Bah! We still won the war.

[KrazyHorse]

pfffft.

[chequita guevara]

We don't speak Canadian, do we?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Hitler was the embodiment of good old fashioned European superstition and bigotry transplanted into the 20th century. His death and dsigrace was the last gasp of the essetial spirit of the old order. Litterally he had to die for the sins of Europe's past.

Then how come the bigotry is still there, with both antisemitism and neonazism on the rise?

Bigotry in the EU? But....but.....That's just not possible! There was a memo passed around about that I'm certain. Yes...here it is. "There is no bigotry ion Europe." It's signed by all the right people...... So it must be true.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Go to Feldgrau and check which divisions those were. Almost all were "police" divisions or the ethnic SS divisions. The best of these were at half strength, and the average police division only had half the normal complement of men at 100% strength.

The Second Panzer Corp and the SS Panzer Division Liebstandarde Adolph Hitler were police units? Dang hommie! I don't want to be caught loitering in your neighborhood if that's what you call the police! Actually of the units posted in Yugoslavia in mid-1943 ten of the division were armored, standard infantry or mountain.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

The Second Panzer Corp and the SS Panzer Division Liebstandarde Adolph Hitler were police units? Dang hommie! I don't want to be caught loitering in your neighborhood if that's what you call the police!

A doctor of medicine, and minor in military history!

[Mr. Harley]

I started this several days ago, but instead of hitting enter, I hit the stupid enhanced power key. No backup, from now on I type large posts on a word processor and then cut an paste.

Hitler lost the day he appointed Goering as head of the Luftwaffe. I am going to make some quotes from a review of Mitcham Jr, Samuel W. Eagles of the Third Reich: The Men Who Made the Luftwaffe. Novato, CA: Presidio Press, 1997.. This already matches extensive reading I’ve done elsewhere.

From the high command reorganizations of 1937 and 1938 onward, the Luftwaffe's structure was completely unworkable and served only to provide multiple layers of scapegoats for Goering's inability and unwillingness to lead his branch of the armed forces. While the organization was unworkable, the men selected to fill the positions were all too often unsuitable.

Some of the brilliant stunts Goering attempted was to prejudge the Me109 as a failure, because without an open cockpit the pilot could not feel the air. Thankfully for the Luftwaffe you had a fly off, and the Me109 soundly trounced the opposition. He also made a statement concerning the development, or lack thereof, of a strategic bomber. He stated that the Fuhrer did not care what kind of aircraft he had, only how many. Thus you end up with the under funding and later cancellation of the German strategic bomber plans.

This is significant, the Soviet rail system often had a single link, not even always paired track, between cities. If the Germans had longer ranged bombers that could have cut those links, the factories could not have been transported by rail to the Urals and Asia. This makes the resurgence of the Red Army in 1942-1943 problematic at best.

You have the total lack of interest in the Heinkel 178 (cut and paste this link, I cannot make it work properly -www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/HEINHE-178.htm), the jet fighter that could have been operational at the time of the Battle of Britian. You have the banning of Heinkel from developing any fighter aircraft, since that was now dedicated to Messerschmidt (and then Focke-Wolf). You have the Nazi takeover of Junkers, and the lack of any new transport plane development. Also since Hitler liked it, the lack of any effective replacement for the Stuka, that was really obsolete by the time of the Battle of Britian.

Then there are the personnel assignment. Ernst Udet, a handsome WW1 ace and playboy, was put in charge of the technical side of the Luftwaffe. This was to offset the growing influence of Erhard Milch, the organizational and technological expert, at times genius, who had helped organize the expanding Luftwaffe (Milch also made some mistakes, IMHO – but not the defeat of Germany type). This was part of Goering’s administrative “policy”, if you can call it that. Don’t let people who are too competent have too much power, or they may displace you.

The result was the lack of production of combat aircraft, lack of new designs except those produced in secret by the various manufacturers (most of the companies were run by aviation engineers who did not take kindly to being told stop engineering), and such a thoroughly bollixed department that Udet committed suicide when he realized the depth of his screw up. This was in November of 1941. Take all of the Luftwaffe innovations and designs and advance them by at least a year, and ask yourself if that would have made a significant contribution.

Then there was what Goering did with Milch. This friendly, jovial technocrat, of whom it was said “When Milch pisses, ice comes out,” was put in charge of personnel. Let’s get this straight. You put the ice man in charge of people, and the playboy-hero in charge of technical matters.

Of course this all boils down to Hitler himself, who rewarded cronies and loyalty more the competence and success. This same effect would slowly erode the German army’s tactical and operational excellence, leading to the debacle finally of Operation Bagration and the Destruction of Army Group Center in 1944 in Russia, leading to the killing and capture of 500,000 German Troops. The hack that Hitler had put in command, General Busch, was appointed because he was a good Nazi and followed orders slavishly.

My point is that the entire Hitler state, with cronyism, sycophants, and toadies being appointed over those that had actually created the world class military, had already sowed the seeds of its defeat. A system that does that is self-defeating, it took as long as it did because it took that long for the Nazis to dismantle the tool (the German military and it’s traditions plus the German tradition of technical brilliance and research) that had been built up over generations that they had tried to ride to victory.

[Fake Boris]

Interesting post, but, small detail, I doubt that the Stuka was "obsolete" by 1940... "unsuited for midrange strategic bombings" would be more accurate.

[Straybow]

Errr, Stuka was as pure a tactical strike craft as has ever existed...