The firebombing of Dresden - 60 year anniversary

[Cruddy]

I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned it yet - but Dresden was stuffed with many thousands of refugees at the time. That 35,000 casualty figure must be bull****.

Given that the Nazis never acheived more than 44% in free elections, this is not a provable assertion. Furthermore, the Nazis themselves estiamted that half of that vote was a protest vote, against the other parties, and not support for them. At best, somehwere between a quarter and a fifth of Germans embraced the Nazis. The rest were hijacked.

Depends on the electoral system. 44% of a Brit general election gives a working majority of seats... strange but true.

[Ned]

"The Russian Request for Allied Bombing of Communications in the Dresden Area:

17. The Allied-Russian interchanges that had begun in the closing months of 1944 and had become, with the passing of time, more frequent and more specific, culminated in the ARGONAUT Conferences of January-February 1945. On 4 February, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, and Marshal Stalin, together with their foreign secretaries and military advisors, assembled at Yalta to present definitive and specific plans, and requests, for bringing the war against Germany to a victorious conclusion, by the summer of 1945, if possible (Other considerations involved in the ARGONAUT deliberations are not pertinent or relevant here). At this meeting, Marshal Stalin asked Army General Antonov, Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff, to outline to the Conference the situation existing on the Eastern Front and to describe Russia’s plans for subsequent operations. At the conclusion of his extended presentation, General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians: 27

Our wishes are:
a. To speed up the advance of the Allied troops on the Western Front, for which the present situation is very favorable: (1) To defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front. (2) To defeat the German groupings which have advanced into the Ardennes. (3) The weakening of the German forces in the West in connection with the shifting of their reserves to the East (It is desirable to begin the advance during the first half of February).
b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig).
c. Not permit the enemy to remove his forces from Italy.

18. It was the specific Russian request for bombing communications, coupled with the emphasis on forcing troops to shift from west to east through communications centers, that led to the Allied bombings of Dresden. The structure of the Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex, as outlined in paragraph 8 above, required that Dresden, as well as Berlin and Leipzig, be bombed. Therefore Allied air authorities concluded that the bombing of Dresden would have to be undertaken (1) in order to implement strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, and now agreed upon at the highest levels of governmental authority, and (2) to respond to the specific Russian request presented to the Allies by General Antonov to “paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig.”

The Recommendation and Authority for the Allied Air Forces’ Bombing of Dresden:

19. On 8 February 1945 SHAEF (Air) informed the RAF Bomber Command and the United States Strategic Air Forces that Dresden was among a number of targets that had been selected for bombing because of their importance in relation to the movements of military forces to the Eastern Front.28 This action, based upon the authoritative recommendation of the Combined Strategic Targets Committee, SHAEF (Air), and in turn based upon the recommendations of the Joint Intelligence Committee (see paragraph 16 above), was in keeping with the procedural structure and authority set up in SHAEF for the conduct of aerial operations by Allied forces.29

20. Allied aerial operations were ultimately the responsibility of the Supreme Commander, General Eisenhower, though normally he delegated the immediate authority for employment of Allied air forces to his Deputy Supreme Commander, Marshal Tedder. The latter, in turn, relied upon the commanders of the RAF Bomber Command and the United States Strategic Air Forces (General Carl Spaatz, Commanding) for the actual conduct of specific strategic aerial operations. The top commanders of the Allied strategic bomber forces were required to conduct all of their operations within the framework of bombing directives laid down to them by the Combined Chiefs of Staff (the British Chiefs of Staff and the American Joint Chiefs of Staff). In February 1945, when SHAEF (Air) directed the bombing of Dresden in immediate support of the Russians and in keeping with strategic objectives of mutual interest to the Allies and the Russians, the strategic objectives of mutual interest o the Allies and the Russians, the strategic bomber forces were operating under the authority of the Combined Chiefs of Staff (CCS) “Directive No. 3 for the Strategic Air Forces in Europe,” dated 12 January 1945.30 The second priority, after bombing of the German petroleum industry for the Allied strategic air forces was, in that directive, listed as the bombing of “German lines of communications.”31 The authority for and the ordering of the bombing of Dresden by Allied strategic air forces and the steps taken to carry out these orders were therefore within the framework of the existing basic CCS Directive No. 3 governing the operations of the Allied strategic air forces in Europe.

Information Officially Given to the Russians by the Allies Concerning the Intended Date of and the Forces to be Committed to the Bombing of Dresden:

21. Although the exact procedures for maintaining day to day liaison between the Russians and the Allies on Allied bombing operations was for a long time the subject of negotiation between the Allies and the Russians, certain procedures for such liaison were nevertheless in effect prior to the Allied bombings of Dresden.32 Therefore, the following actions were taken by Allied authorities to notify the Russians that in accordance with their expressed wishes as to actions and timing, stated at the ARGONAUT Conference on 4 February 1945, Allied strategic air forces would bomb Dresden during the first half of February.33

22. On 7 February 1945, General Spaatz, Commanding General, United States Strategic Air Forces, informed Major General J. R. Deane, Chief of the United States Military Mission, Moscow, that the communications targets for strategic bombing by the Eighth Air Force were, in the order of their priority, Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden, Cheanitz (and others of lesser importance).34 On the same date, General Spaatz also notified General Deane that a 24-hour advance notice of the intention to conduct actual bombing operations against Dresden (and the other targets of mutual concern to the Russians and the Allies) would be forwarded in order that General Deane might so notify the Russians.35 Moscow notified the proper Russian authority that Dresden was among the targets selected for strategic bombing by the American Eighth Air Force.36 On February, General Spaatz informed the United States Military Mission that, weather permitting, the Eighth Air Force intended to attack the Dresden Marshalling Yards with a force of 1200 to 1400 bomber planes on 13 February.37 On 12 February, therefore, the Russians were informed of the Americans’ intention to bomb Dresden.38 Weather conditions did not permit the Eighth Air Force to carry out its attack against Dresden on 13 February.39 Accordingly, on 13 February by similar procedures the Americans informed the Russians, that the Eighth Air Force would attack the Dresden Marshalling Yards on the 14th.40 Subsequently, the Russians were informed by the Americans that Dresden, together with the other high priority communications centers targets, would be subject to attack whenever weather conditions permitted.41

The Forces and Means Employed by the Allies in the Bombing of Dresden:

23. In the Dresden bombing attacks of 14-15 February 1945 the American Eighth Air Force and the RAF Bomber Command together employed a total of 1299 bomber aircraft (527 from the Eighth Air Force, 722 from the RAF Bomber Command) for a total weight, on targets, of 3906.9 tons. Of this tonnage, 1247.6 tons were expanded by the Eighth Air Force, 2659.3 tons by the RAF Bomber Command. The Americans employed 953.3 tons of high explosive bombs and 294.3 tons of incendiary bombs--all aimed at the Dresden Marshalling Yards. The British employed 1477.7 tons of high explosive bombs and 1181.6 tons of incendiary bombs--all aimed against the Dresden city area.42 The American aircraft used H2X (radar) bombing method, with visual assists, and the British used the marker and visual method.43

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Kamrat X, that opening post from the Green Party reads like Soviet propaganda. Makes one wonder about whether the Greens are new home of communism.

The Green Left Weekly is not a Green paper. It is an Australian communist paper of the poltical tendency to which I and Dracon II adhere.

[Ned]

Che, and do you also support the statement that the bombing of Dreden was an allied plot to impress the Soviets of the savagery of its imperialist war machine?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


According to the stragtegic bombing assessment conducted by the US after the war, the opposite was true, and it has remained true to this day. Bombing a civilian population causes them to rally around their government, not break their will.

Well, most of the so-called "Schicksalsgemeinschaft" is a myth created by nazi propaganda. Internal NS documents report a picture that is a lot more different. Civilian morale was seriously affected, criticism was made increasingly about the NS regime in cities that were bombed, social tensions and conflicts between various groups of the civilian population broke out - but in one thing you're right: this all didn't lead to a total breakdown of morale.

Even in this situation, there were numerous reasons for most Germans to continue fighting (or at least they thought they had those reasons), like fear of revenge, hope that the "Führer" will ensure the "Endsieg" somehow, hope fore new "Wunderwaffen" (all of these things also fueled by NS propaganda), or the simple idea that fighting would be their duty. I think the British side made a gross miscalculation, from the nature of the NS regime it seems more plausible that Hitler et al would have contiunued the fight at all costs even in the face of worse bombardments and that they would have repressed any serious opposition to that.

[Dis]

no one is discussing the important news.

Germans are comparing the bombing of Dresden to the bomging of Baghdad!!

"Allied bomb terror -- then as now. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and today Baghdad. No forgiveness, no forgetting."

[BeBMan]

Who does this?

[Dis]

Originally posted by BeBro
Who does this?

read the article. germans.

sure they are neo-nazis. but neo-nazis are people too.

[BeBMan]

But nobody takes them seriously.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Ned
Kamrat X, that opening post from the Green Party reads like Soviet propaganda. Makes one wonder about whether the Greens are new home of communism.

Well, the GLF is the mouthpiece of the Democratic Socialist Perspective, former trotskyists turned enviromentalists. I don´t know if there is a "proper" Green Party in Australia.

And I´ve read the multiple posts by "the other side" and I´m starting to have second thoughts. There is, with no doubt, a certain amount of propaganda in the article. ie the status of Dresden and why the city was bombed in the first place, etc. But I´m to shaky in my historical knowledge to say that either side is correct. As ususal the truth is, I presume, somewhere in the middle. But I´ve been meaning to catch up on my WWII history anyway so...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I'm going to start copy & pasting the expression "20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing". I can't be arsed to type it out in my every response to you.

Please do stop typing that. It doesn't make any sense. Of course everyone knew the end of the war was near. It was 1945 for goodness sake.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


According to the stragtegic bombing assessment conducted by the US after the war, the opposite was true, and it has remained true to this day. Bombing a civilian population causes them to rally around their government, not break their will. The suvey concluded that the only appreciable effect long range bombing had in hastening the end of the war was the bombing of Poloesti, which cut off German oil supplies.

I remember seeing something about a German petrol additive plant that was not particularly well guarded but if they'd have thought to hit it, destroying this one plant could have shortened the war considerably as fuel production in Germany would have come to a standstill pretty quickly...

[vodkakov]

Am watching some BBC regional programme at the moment, it's about the bombing campaign. They're talking about German civilians who lynched RAF airmen who bailed out after being hit. The thing that bothers me is the near total indifference regarding the destruction that these airmen had just caused on the ground... for instance, the presenter said something about one town in which 18,000 [sic] people were killed in one raid, but that's about all the attention they've given to the massive civilian death toll... the way the programme seems to be justifying the killing of the civilians because the civilians later lynched airmen sickens me.

Just my two cents.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Please do stop typing that. It doesn't make any sense. Of course everyone knew the end of the war was near. It was 1945 for goodness sake.

January 1945. An interview with a Londoner, according to Kidicious.

"No, I don't think we should bomb German cities. I admit that it was only a few days ago that the German armed forces had made the Allied forces on the Western Front soil themselves with shock when they surged out of the Ardennes, and it's true that a V2 has just blown up my family. However I know for a fact that the war will be over this year, so further bombing is pointless.

I know this because a voice from the future told me so."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Che, and do you also support the statement that the bombing of Dreden was an allied plot to impress the Soviets of the savagery of its imperialist war machine?

I'd say that was definately in the minds of the Allies when they did it.