The firebombing of Dresden - 60 year anniversary

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
But I get a little confused when the BBC article claims that the bombings took place as a service to the russians, to help them advance on the eastern front. I would sure like to see some sources for this. If it was only to help the russians advance more quickly, why flatten the whole city with incendiary bombs? Seems a bit of overkill, like hunting mosquitos with bazookas...

This is a crapy idea in my opinion. Why would the Russians want the city to be detroyed. They probably figured it would be thiers, and would not want it destroyed. I think at this point in the war players were thinking about postwar.

[Zoid]

Dauphin, a hero to some, a war criminal to others... The ones who were erecting the statue was (probably) of the former persuasion...

Kidicous, exactly. It makes no sense to blow the whole town to kingdom come...

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
A hero to some, a war criminal to others... The ones who were erecting the statue was (probably) of the former persuasion...

They were the Bomber Commands Veteran Association (or something like that), so no **** Sherlock.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Dauphin


He was a war hero?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20050210/wl_uk_afp/wwiihistorydresdenbritain

LONDON (AFP) - Sixty years after the destruction of Dresden, the British public still believes the massive death toll was purely the result of the excess of the notorious "Bomber" Harris, and the idea of a national apology to Germany revolts the tabloid press.

"Harris and Bomber Command are still the black sheep of the British popular memory of the Second World War," said Mark Connelly, a history professor at the University of Kent and the author of a study on the role of the Royal Air Force in the destruction of the picturesque capital of the German state of Saxony.

Deprived of special medals and brushed aside for official ceremonies at the end of the war, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris and his men never enjoyed the status of hero reserved for most of their colleagues.

You are right, seems like ist was just some newspapers and the Veteran Association which were less critical of Harris:

When activists insulted those erecting a statue to Harris in central London in 1992, the Daily Mail newspaper denounced them as "peace idiots".

and also:

After the war, when the true nature of this bombing became known, Harris was publicly villified as a war criminal, and in disgrace he left the country to reside for a time in South Africa, but he returned with impunity to England in 1953

After his death, the Royal Air Force erected a bronze statue of Harris outside the RAF chapel in London (St. Clement Danes church). The statue was pelted with paint and refuse by protestors, and had to be put under 24-hour guard.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/dresden/harris.html

I´m glad to be proven wrong in this case

[Dr Strangelove]

By 1945 the axis were farming out some war production to homes. Small parts could be Pressed or molded in basements, partially assembled in a worker's home, then brought to a center for final assmebly. The decentralized assembly senters were much smaller than traditional factories anf therefore more difficult to identify and target. This made disruption of industry via bombers attacking factories less of a problem. The allies were aware that Germany had decentralized war production and thought that this trend was the primary reason for the failure of strategic bombing to have an effect on the delivery of armaments to the German war machine. They then rationalized that the only way that strategic bombing could wreck the German war machine was to destroy the cities.

[BeBMan]

That is the strangest explanation for the bombings I ever heard. It also does not explain while those large scale attacks took place since 1942.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by BeBro
That is the strangest explanation for the bombings I ever heard. It also does not explain while those large scale attacks took place since 1942.

I believe that most of the large scale attacks conducted in 1942 and 1943 targeted factories, ports, rail centers and sub pens. Most of these attacks would have been night raids. Large numbers of bombers were needed due to the inherent inaccuracy of night bombing during WW2. Today a single plane can generally accomplish what required entire air groups in 1942.

[laurentius]

Isnt that like rounding up 10 000 palestinian males and killing them because one of the might be a terrorist?

[mrmitchell]

The best way to sum up WWII is that every nation involved showed their worst. The Soviets ran death camps and huge rings of spy networks; the Germans committed the most systematic, planned mass murder in history; the Japs killed thousands of Chinese; the British firebombed Dresden; the Americans nuked huge population centers.

By the end of the war, everyone had realized they'd reached the limit via conventional destruction, and started exploring the completely new level of evil granted by appropriately named "weapons of mass destruction"--we are blessed that the Allies did everything to speed up their victory, because the alternative was simply not worth risking.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by GePap
1. Who cares if the Germans did something previously? Payback is a pretty ****ty arguement to justify anything, ever. So what if they did it? If one is supposedly better than the other guy, then why would you do what they do?

That's how the Blitz started too. You can criticise the logic if you wish, but you can't change the fact that both sides did it for just that reason.

In the end, all the bombing Dreseden achieved was killing a whole bunch of civilians. I doubt that WW2 was speeded up a single day by that raid.

Once again, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I usually find you sensible, but not at all in this case.

When you suggest that the Germans had effectively given up, ignoring the fact that hundreds of V2's were still hitting British cities, you forfeit any right to be taken seriously on this topic.

Meanwhile, if you seriously want to commemorate Dresden go throw some sort of event. A barbecue or something.

[Alexander's Horse]

The idea that Dresden was a non military target seems to have grown up after the war. It was never decalred an open city. At the time the nazis were turning cities into fortresses and many, like Breslau, held out months after they had been overrun.

It was also the nazis who refused to evacuate civilians leaving them to face the bombing raids. Dresden was never declared an open city and was important base for German forces. Ironically as allied forces got closer to it, its military importance increased.

Was it regrettable and a tragedy? Of course it was. But the real tragedy was nazism which most Germans enthusiastically embraced.

I just heard German man on the radio tearfully saying how he suffered during the bombing and how it made it him determined to fight fascism. Never again.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by BeBro


Well, the problem is just that today extremists are using Dresden to relativize (sp?) German crimes of ww2......and while the bombings had indeed an effect on German morale (of course - who would think bombardmensts of this scale couldn't?) the main goal of the "moral bombing" - breaking combat morale - wasn't reached. So you have material destruction and loss of life on a grand scale for highly questionable results.

But at the time it was thought by many that large scale bombing of cities could win wars. Dresden was way over the top, IMO, however you have to consider why the Germans and the Western Allies spent massive resources on bombing cities. It is because they thought it would contribute to winning.

The results were questionable, and they were questioned by the bombing surveys and other studies after the war.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
The best way to sum up WWII is that every nation involved showed their worst. The Soviets ran death camps and huge rings of spy networks; the Germans committed the most systematic, planned mass murder in history; the Japs killed thousands of Chinese; the British firebombed Dresden; the Americans nuked huge population centers.

Still, the scale of atrocities on both sides was not equal.
You can not put Dresden and Holocaust in one row.

[Provost Harrison]

So tell me, how do you evaluate atrocities?