The firebombing of Dresden - 60 year anniversary

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Given that the United Kingdom had suffered attack from Germany's increasingly sophisticated rocket bombs, I'm not sure what people thought that the British Air Force should have done: dropped Valentine's Day cards perhaps?

What about things like:

Bomb Railwaytracks, Roads, Bridges, and the factories you mentioned
instead of carpet bombing the residential areas to inflict a firestorm.

[Patroklos]

hasten the end.

The bombing of Dresden did not keep one German soldier from defending Berlin, nor degrade his fighting ability in the slightest. The only major military clash at that time was Berlin and its outskirts.

Dresden prevented/ended nothing in regards to that war.

And what does being the first city to accept Nazism have to do with anything. Can Germans use that as an excuse to bomb Leningrad? Civilian targets are civilian targets, no matter how much you hate their political beliefs.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


The best thing you could do for the victims of Dresden and other places like Coventry is fight for peace in your own time.

Absolutely- which is what Coventry Cathedral strives to do:

" Coventry was a city devastated in the war, typical of so many places in both our countries. And in the ruins of the burned-out Cathedral today, there is a large cross made from charred timbers that fell from the roof, and a smaller cross made from the original C14th nails found in the rubble.

Beside these, remembering also the devastation suffered here in the war, is a sign with words Jesus spoke from the cross 2000 years ago: "Father Forgive".

In Dresden, and in Berlin (in the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedachtnis-Kirche), and in Hiroshima and Volgograd (the former Stalingrad), there is a similar cross of nails from Coventry, with the same message "Father Forgive". Every Friday at noon, in all these places, is said the same prayer of reconciliation. "

http://www.burwellbansin.com/Visits_2001_Sermon.html

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

The best thing you could do for the victims of Dresden and other places like Coventry is fight for peace in your own time.

That´s true

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


What about things like:

Bomb Railwaytracks, Roads, Bridges, and the factories you mentioned
instead of carpet bombing the residential areas to inflict a firestorm.

I believe you're seriously overestimating the ability of Allied bombers to 'precision bomb' areas.

Industrial targets aren't always neatly laid out for the opposing airforces to attack- workers' houses tend to be grouped in and around industrial zones.

Incendiary bombs cause fires- it's what they're intended to do. It's what they did in Coventry and London and Plymouth.

I'm not excusing the bombing raids, but given the times, I don't know what you expected the Allies to do, wait until they had developed incredibly accurate pilotless flying bombs? It takes time to train bomber crews, and time to manufacture aircraft.

It was also, after all a war against a state which had shown a willingness to eradicate whole villages for the assassination of one Nazi.

[Patroklos]

I'm not excusing the bombing raids, but given the times, I don't know what you expected the Allies to do, wait until they had developed incredibly accurate pilotless flying bombs? It takes time to train bomber crews, and time to manufacture aircraft.

Come to the obvious conclusion, even back then, that this action would do nothing to achieve your stated goal.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Come to the obvious conclusion, even back then, that this action would do nothing to achieve your stated goal.

Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.


" After the horror of the Blitz in 1940 and 1941, London continued to suffer from air raids but not on the same scale. It wasn't until June 1944 that Londoners again suffered from daily indiscriminate bombing but this time it was the V1 (also called doodlebugs) and V2 rockets.

Throughout the 1930s German scientists had been working on flying bombs and rockets. By October 1942 they had successfully tested a rocket, 46 feet long and able to carry a one ton warhead. It could travel more than 200 miles at a speed of 3600 miles per hour. This was developed into the V2 rocket.

At the same time, the V1 flying bomb had also been developed. Although it was not as good as the V2, it was cheaper to produce.

The British Government knew about the development of these two weapons and tended to take a pessimistic view of the damage and carnage they could cause. To slow down production, raids were launched on German factories.

The British and Americans commenced Operation Overlord, the invasion of France, on 6th January 1944. Just six days later the first V1 flying bombs descended on London. Only one of the ten launched arrived in London killing six people in the East End. Within days V1s were being launched at the rate of 100 per day. Almost half were shot down by fighter pilots and guns but the remainder hit the capital.

As these rockets were launched in daytime, they caused large numbers of casualties because there were more people out and about.

Londoners became accustomed to hearing the sound of a rocket's engine and to breathing a sigh of relief when it went over or waiting for death if the engine cut out just overhead.

As the allies advanced in France, the Germans lost their launch sites so by the end of August the V1 raids had largely ceased although some were still launched from planes.

Now though, the V2 rockets were launched. Although they were not much more destructive than the V1, they could not be detected by radar, nor could they be shot down because of the high speeds at which they travelled. As the allied forces advanced in Europe, the V2 launchers were either captured or pushed back out of range. The attacks finally ended at the end of March 1945.

Although the V1s and V2s did not cause the large scale devastation seen in the Blitz, they did cause terrible carnage and destruction in the immediate area they hit. Amongst the damage and casualties were:

In June 1944 a V1 scored a direct hit on the Wellington Barracks Guards Chapel killing 119 people
Also in June the London Library was damage
5 houses were demolished and 24 people killed at Highbury Corner in the same month.
An animal health institute was destroyed in Battersea
By the beginning of July, 200,000 houses were damaged and needing repair.
At the beginning of July 1944 Sloane Court was hit killing 26 people
160 people were killed in a Woolworths store in South London in November 1945
In March 1945 134 people died in Stepney, East London
V2s killed more than 2500 people and seriously injured almost 6000 "

http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/rockets.html

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.


" After the horror of the Blitz in 1940 and 1941, London continued to suffer from air raids but not on the same scale. It wasn't until June 1944 that Londoners again suffered from daily indiscriminate bombing but this time it was the V1 (also called doodlebugs) and V2 rockets.

Throughout the 1930s German scientists had been working on flying bombs and rockets. By October 1942 they had successfully tested a rocket, 46 feet long and able to carry a one ton warhead. It could travel more than 200 miles at a speed of 3600 miles per hour. This was developed into the V2 rocket.

At the same time, the V1 flying bomb had also been developed. Although it was not as good as the V2, it was cheaper to produce.

The British Government knew about the development of these two weapons and tended to take a pessimistic view of the damage and carnage they could cause. To slow down production, raids were launched on German factories.

The British and Americans commenced Operation Overlord, the invasion of France, on 6th January 1944. Just six days later the first V1 flying bombs descended on London. Only one of the ten launched arrived in London killing six people in the East End. Within days V1s were being launched at the rate of 100 per day. Almost half were shot down by fighter pilots and guns but the remainder hit the capital.

As these rockets were launched in daytime, they caused large numbers of casualties because there were more people out and about.

Londoners became accustomed to hearing the sound of a rocket's engine and to breathing a sigh of relief when it went over or waiting for death if the engine cut out just overhead.

As the allies advanced in France, the Germans lost their launch sites so by the end of August the V1 raids had largely ceased although some were still launched from planes.

Now though, the V2 rockets were launched. Although they were not much more destructive than the V1, they could not be detected by radar, nor could they be shot down because of the high speeds at which they travelled. As the allied forces advanced in Europe, the V2 launchers were either captured or pushed back out of range. The attacks finally ended at the end of March 1945.

Although the V1s and V2s did not cause the large scale devastation seen in the Blitz, they did cause terrible carnage and destruction in the immediate area they hit. Amongst the damage and casualties were:

In June 1944 a V1 scored a direct hit on the Wellington Barracks Guards Chapel killing 119 people
Also in June the London Library was damage
5 houses were demolished and 24 people killed at Highbury Corner in the same month.
An animal health institute was destroyed in Battersea
By the beginning of July, 200,000 houses were damaged and needing repair.
At the beginning of July 1944 Sloane Court was hit killing 26 people
160 people were killed in a Woolworths store in South London in November 1945
In March 1945 134 people died in Stepney, East London
V2s killed more than 2500 people and seriously injured almost 6000 "

http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/rockets.html

So, if terror bombing wasn't hindering the british war effort, why would they think it would hinder the german war effort?


What you are quoting seems to suggest that hindsight wasn't required.

[Micha]

160 people were killed in a Woolworths store in South London in November 1945

Erm, the war was over by then...

Again, this should not be a discussion about the moral justification of the bombings. There is none.
By the logic some have stated in this thread it would be morally ok for any Vietnamese bomber crew to fly incendiary raids on Los Angeles for several years. (refers to the one with "obliterating villages for one nazi", which did US-troops in Vietnam as well)

The Coventry example is IMO a ray of hope for our times. I applaude the gesture.
Also many people from the former Allied countries donated money for the reconstruction of Dresden´s cultural sites. This is why the Frauenkirche now stands in new (old) glory.
Thank you very much!

[GePap]

MIlitary targets could and were hit by daylight "precision" bombing- nightime incendiary raids are indiscriminiate affairs: thats the point of contention- one thing is trying to hit war industry and targets of military importance while trying to minimize civlian deaths. Bombing indescriminately, which is what Bomber Command did, is quite another thing, and hence the moral questions.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by General Ludd


So, if terror bombing wasn't hindering the british war effort, why would they think it would hinder the german war effort?

Because we could do it more effectively.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Kidicious

There's something wrong with your thinking. Of course I didn't imply that the Germans had surrendered and the Allies bombed them anyway. My point is that the bombing did not break their moral (it was already broken)

...which is why they carried on fighting? And dropping bombs and rockets on us? Mere weeks after the Battle of the Bulge? That's what "broken morale" means, is it?

, and it did not force a surrender. It served no purpose.

I'm going to start copy & pasting the expression "20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing". I can't be arsed to type it out in my every response to you.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I said the German people lost the will to fight because of the bombing.

According to the stragtegic bombing assessment conducted by the US after the war, the opposite was true, and it has remained true to this day. Bombing a civilian population causes them to rally around their government, not break their will. The suvey concluded that the only appreciable effect long range bombing had in hastening the end of the war was the bombing of Poloesti, which cut off German oil supplies.

[Ned]

Kamrat X, that opening post from the Green Party reads like Soviet propaganda. Makes one wonder about whether the Greens are new home of communism.

For example, news about Dresden reached the US public in May of 1945, IIRC. The news was came from Swedish reporters who visited the city and reported what they saw.

George Marshall said at the time that Dresden had been bombed at the request of Stalin made at the Yalta conference approximate a week earlier. Apparently the raid was in support of Soviet operations in the area.

The problem, of course, is the means chosen. Use of the British bombers virtually guaranteed what happened because the Brits bombed at night and used incendiaries. Had the US only bombed using HE and targeting only the rail communications for example, a lot less damage would have been done to civilian areas.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
But the real tragedy was nazism which most Germans enthusiastically embraced.

Given that the Nazis never acheived more than 44% in free elections, this is not a provable assertion. Furthermore, the Nazis themselves estiamted that half of that vote was a protest vote, against the other parties, and not support for them. At best, somehwere between a quarter and a fifth of Germans embraced the Nazis. The rest were hijacked.