PA accuses Hezbollah of undermining peace process

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


"supporting terrorism"?

He claimed Hezbullah is trying to undermine the peace process by paying people to conduct attacks- that is not the same as "validating the evil claims of other people", anymore than it is him invalidating the entire Intifadah or saying that the "martyrs" were not really martyrs but terrorists.


On a bit of good news, Israel has announced it will stop the deplorable tactic of home demolitions as collective punishment to deter further militant attacks, after doing and study and finding it had little effect, specially since many Islamic groups stepped in to help the families recoup.

So, good news that this practice is ending

"In a Reuters interview in 2003, when demolitions peaked, leading Palestinian rights activist Bassam Eid agreed the tactic was a deterrent, but said it cost long-term peace hopes. "


from what i can gather its not that the tactic was not effective as a deterrent, but that theyve decided that under current conditions the increased ill will means its a net loss. Obviously the value of good will/ill will depends on the political situation, and is much higher now that the principle obstacle to peace is in his grave.

If you have a citation for your interpretation id be happy to see it though. I got mine from Reuters, i think, and theyre not always complete.

[GePap]

No, its not.

Its a question of priorities and values: your first statement implied that Abbas' position validated in any way the US and Israeli accusation vs. Hezbollah and thus he was siding with the US and Israel. This is NOT the thrust of his statements, his thrust is siding with the Palestinian people, by making the point that the armed struggle is the wrong strategy, that the palestinian people by electing him decided to try non-violence and peace, and that Hezbollah was trying to undermine the choice of Palestinians (him and his new policy).

Honestly LoTM, you would not have much a a future in politics.

[lord of the mark]

much other good news as well. The knesset has passed another bill supporting the disengagement plan, Jordan is returning its ambassador to Israel, the Iraqi National Assembly is about to be seated, Lebanese are calling en masse for Syria to withdraw.

[pchang]

Don't you just hate it when the bad guys win?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
No, its not.

Its a question of priorities and values: your first statement implied that Abbas' position validated in any way the US and Israeli accusation vs. Hezbollah and thus he was siding with the US and Israel. This is NOT the thrust of his statements, his thrust is siding with the Palestinian people, by making the point that the armed struggle is the wrong strategy, that the palestinian people by electing him decided to try non-violence and peace, and that Hezbollah was trying to undermine the choice of Palestinians (him and his new policy).

Honestly LoTM, you would not have much a a future in politics.

I did NOT say that Abbas was siding with the US and Israel, and of course he is siding with the Pal people. In the course of making his point however, he confirmed a specific FACT, which does support the claims that the US and Israel have made about Hezbollah.


Its kinda like when the police are trying to find a suspects whereabouts at the time of the crime, and his wife screams to them that he beat her up at 6 oclock, and she tossed him out at 7 oclock. HER agenda is to complain about being beaten up, and to show how tough she was to toss him out. THEIR agenda is to establish that the suspect was NOT at home at 8 oclock.


You have a great future as a blogger, or columnist, I must say.

[Edan]

Old article, but it gives some examples of suicide bombers being deterred

But right now, with prospects of peace high, not going ahead with demolitions is a good move.

[Ramo]

I'm more interested in which terracts Abbas is specifically accusing Hizbullah of.

I agree with GePap that Abbas certainly has a vested interest in blaming Hizbullah. By doing that, he gets points with the Israelis without pissing off his domestic opposition - Hamas; it's a win-win scenario for him.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I did NOT say that Abbas was siding with the US and Israel, and of course he is siding with the Pal people. In the course of making his point however, he confirmed a specific FACT, which does support the claims that the US and Israel have made about Hezbollah.

Like Abbas was stating that prior to now Hezbollah had never done it? Or would you claim that Abbas statements urgin Hamas not to carry out attacks validates US claims that Hamas is a terrorist org? Your statement was how Abbas would be "taking on" these groups- by that you seem to say that Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria would all see his statements as validating Israeli and US claims about the need for sanctions, or even all the way to war- I am stating that that is wrong, and I do not think they would see it as such, anymore than the average palestinian would think that somehow, by criticizing Hezbollah you validate Israeli actions.

Its kinda like when the police are trying to find a suspects whereabouts at the time of the crime, and his wife screams to them that he beat her up at 6 oclock, and she tossed him out at 7 oclock. HER agenda is to complain about being beaten up, and to show how tough she was to toss him out. THEIR agenda is to establish that the suspect was NOT at home at 8 oclock.

Except your statement was about the reaction from hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. NOt that of the US and Israel. So you have to speak about the issue from the view of said "suspect".

You have a great future as a blogger, or columnist, I must say.

Yes, I am sure I would do fine in those fields, not that I plan to.

[Ramo]

To make an analogy to Iraq (which I'm sure y'all are not sick of ), there's been a great deal of effort made by the Allawi gov't to blame violence on "foreign fighters" and Iran, rather than the domestic oppositions responsible for the overwhelming majority of violence.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Edan
Old article, but it gives some examples of suicide bombers being deterred

But right now, with prospects of peace high, not going ahead with demolitions is a good move.

The IDF stated they had 22 example of this tactic working, out of over 630 such demolitions, or a 3.5% effectiveness rate.

Not in any way worth the human cost of this collecitve punishment.

[Agathon]

Not in any way worth the human cost of this collecitve punishment.

As if they care about that.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ramo
I'm more interested in which terracts Abbas is specifically accusing Hizbullah of.

I agree with GePap that Abbas certainly has a vested interest in blaming Hizbullah. By doing that, he gets points with the Israelis without pissing off his domestic opposition - Hamas; it's a win-win scenario for him.

As I said before, I don;t know if this is true or not, might, might not, but in the end, I doubt that even if Hezbollah wanted to derail the peace process they could not, as long as the PA was serious about it.

On the other hand, Hamas might have the ability to undermine the process, but indirectly, by showing the inability of the PA to deliver.

[lord of the mark]

Like Abbas was stating that prior to now Hezbollah had never done it? Or would you claim that Abbas statements urgin Hamas not to carry out attacks validates US claims that Hamas is a terrorist org?

I dont think there is anyone who is in any doubt that Hamas targets Israeli civilians. The FACTS of the case are not at issue, whatever labels are attached. In the case of Hezbollah, their involvement in support of such attacks IS at issue, IIUC. Im taking Abbas as a witness to the facts. To use the crime analogy, if the issue in question is who pulled the trigger that killed Col Mustard, and a witness says Mr Plumb did it, thats good enough, and I dont really care with Mr. Plumb thinks it was justifiable based on Col. Mustards crimes as a colonialist.

Your statement was how Abbas would be "taking on" these groups- by that you seem to say that Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria would all see his statements as validating Israeli and US claims about the need for sanctions, or even all the way to war- I am stating that that is wrong, and I do not think they would see it as such, anymore than the average palestinian would think that somehow, by criticizing Hezbollah you validate Israeli actions.


Except your statement was about the reaction from hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. NOt that of the US and Israel. So you have to speak about the issue from the view of said "suspect".

If the suspect thinks his wife is stupid, and was fooled by the cops into blowing his alibi, he may forgive her. If, OTOH, the fact that the police were trying to determine his alibi was well known, and she knew it, and she was smart, then hes likely to be damned pissed at her. He might even try to kill her. And she, in turn, being smart, is likely to take that into account when making her statement - if, knowing she could be killed for it, she still makes it, that adds weight to it.

In our case, Abbas and the PA officials are VERY MUCH aware that the US and Israel are currently pressing the EU to sanction Hezbollah. They also are quite aware of the Bush doctrine regarding state support for terrorists. They are certainly aware that Israel has claimed in the past that Hezb supported attacks, and that those claims have been contested. They therefore certainly know that their OWN statements to that effect would have an impact on the debate. And the Iranians, Syrians, and Hezb KNOW that Abbas et al know that. And Abbas et al know that Iran, Syria, and Hezb know that the Pals know all that.

Really, do you think Abbas has been living on the moon these last 5 years?

[Ramo]

What I find interesting is that Hizbullah has been fairly quiet these past 5 years - ever since Israel withdrew from Lebanon. If there is a resurgence in their militance, what's responsible for it? The crushing of the Iranian Reformists causing a push for violence from Tehran? The US pissing off the Shia community (a rediculous amount of Lebanese protested during the siege of the Imam Ali Shrine)?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


As I said before, I don;t know if this is true or not, might, might not, but in the end, I doubt that even if Hezbollah wanted to derail the peace process they could not, as long as the PA was serious about it.

On the other hand, Hamas might have the ability to undermine the process, but indirectly, by showing the inability of the PA to deliver.

the way Hamas or Hezb undermine the process is by CAUSING the inability of the PA to deliver, by launching terrorist acts that make it impossible for Sharon to make the concessions that Abbas needs. Now Sharon knows they will pursue this strategy, and will make allowance for it, but beyond a certain point Israeli forebearance will not last.