Open Iraqi election thread

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Do you actually know anything about Iraq, Jaarko? If you do so far you have not displayed it.

There have been massive public works programs simply to creat jobs and that's why unemployment has been halfed. Everything from cleaning streets, to trash clean up (which is every where), to repaving roads, to building water & power plants.

26.8% unemployment, no foreign investments, electricity not yet even close to '91 levels as far as I can see. All this, after two years. These "massive" programs of yours don't seem to add up to much.

Why is that? Could it be that there's an insurgency that's been worsening month after month, the US unable to deal with it?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Jaakko
For starters, the US stops stomping around like a bull in a china shop. No 500 pound bombs in urban areas, strict RoE. Bleed for the Iraqis sake, don't make the Iraqis bleed for your sake.

I'm tired of responding to your complete ignorance of all things Iraqi so this shall be the last time.

There are no 500lb bombs being dropped in urban areas and the Rules of Engagement are extremely strict. I know this based upon being a soldier there who lived under those RoE and observing that there were no 500lb bombs being dropped.

Edit: In major offensives like Fallujah there were bombs dropped but the city wast pretty much vacated and everyone was given fair warning.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Jaakko


U.S. aircraft hit Fallujah twice on Tuesday. An airstrike just after midnight destroyed the city's best-known restaurant, a kebab house that a military statement said was used as an arms depot, citing "numerous secondary explosions." A second strike at 4 a.m. destroyed "a known terrorist safe house" in the northeast of the city, the statement said.

The United States military acknowledged dropping a 500-pound bomb on the wrong house outside the northern city of Mosul on Saturday, killing five people. But the man who owned the house said the bomb killed 14 people - including seven children.

A general article on air strikes.

You haven't proved your point wich was :

Houses are routinely blown up with 500 pound bombs (about 90kg of explosives), with a lethal shrapnel radius of about 400 metres. The dynamics are different in an urban area, but you can be sure that it's doesn't discriminate.

Those attacs was directed against specific targets and sadly some hit the wrong. There are no routinely bombing of common Iraquis.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jaakko


26.8% unemployment, no foreign investments, electricity not yet even close to '91 levels as far as I can see. All this, after two years. These "massive" programs of yours don't seem to add up to much.

Why is that? Could it be that there's an insurgency that's been worsening month after month, the US unable to deal with it?

BTW, are you the same Jaako who trolls usenet?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jaakko


26.8% unemployment, no foreign investments, electricity not yet even close to '91 levels

ah, electricity needs to reach '91 levels, despite 12 years of deterioration of the system. and now 26.8% unemployment is a defeat, despite your earlier claim it was 60%. Will you be in Jacksonville on Sunday? They may need help moving the goalposts.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by BlackCat


You haven't proved your point wich was :




Those attacs was directed against specific targets and sadly some hit the wrong. There are no routinely bombing of common Iraquis.

Gee, they don't randomly bomb the general public? No **** sherlock. You'll notice I didn't talk about targeting "common Iraqis". I was talking about bad intel that ends up killing innocent people, or "collateral damage". You may feel fine sacrificing those lives, but I don't.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by Oerdin


I'm tired of responding to your complete ignorance of all things Iraqi so this shall be the last time.

There are no 500lb bombs being dropped in urban areas and the Rules of Engagement are extremely strict. I know this based upon being a soldier there who lived under those RoE and observing that there were no 500lb bombs being dropped.

Then all those news articles referring to US military spokesmen, mentioning 500 pounders, are lying?

As far as responding goes, you tire mighty quickly seeing as how most you do is tell me to search other threads in search of your argument.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



ah, electricity needs to reach '91 levels, despite 12 years of deterioration of the system. and now 26.8% unemployment is a defeat, despite your earlier claim it was 60%. Will you be in Jacksonville on Sunday? They may need help moving the goalposts.

I said 30 to 60 depending on who you ask. Nice selective memory. FYI, the 60 percent number seems to be one where underemployment is included.

[Jaakko]

And no, I'm not from usenet. Never posted there.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Jaakko




Gee, they don't randomly bomb the general public? No **** sherlock. You'll notice I didn't talk about targeting "common Iraqis". I was talking about bad intel that ends up killing innocent people, or "collateral damage". You may feel fine sacrificing those lives, but I don't.

No, you weren't talking about "bad intel", you presented it as the libration forces intendendly attacked civilians. It may have been in your thoughts when you wrote, but it was not that you expressed.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by BlackCat


No, you weren't talking about "bad intel", you presented it as the libration forces intendendly attacked civilians. It may have been in your thoughts when you wrote, but it was not that you expressed.

Here's the full quote of what I said, which you didn't even bother to include in its entirety in your previous post:


Houses are routinely blown up with 500 pound bombs (about 90kg of explosives), with a lethal shrapnel radius of about 400 metres. The dynamics are different in an urban area, but you can be sure that it's doesn't discriminate.
These actions are undertaken often under shady intel obtained through Iraqi informants, without pre- or post-attack recon to determine who was actually hit. In once case, an USAF spoke how they had bombed a kebab restaurant that was suspected of being a insurgent meeting place. How can you not hit large numbers of civilians with those methods?

Kindly go peddle your BS somewhere else.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Jaakko


Here's the full quote of what I said, which you didn't even bother to include in its entirety in your previous post:


Houses are routinely blown up with 500 pound bombs (about 90kg of explosives), with a lethal shrapnel radius of about 400 metres. The dynamics are different in an urban area, but you can be sure that it's doesn't discriminate.
These actions are undertaken often under shady intel obtained through Iraqi informants, without pre- or post-attack recon to determine who was actually hit. In once case, an USAF spoke how they had bombed a kebab restaurant that was suspected of being a insurgent meeting place. How can you not hit large numbers of civilians with those methods?

Kindly go peddle your BS somewhere else.

As yourself write "These actions are undertaken often under shady intel", then I assume that all the others in your view are random.

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by BlackCat


As yourself write "These actions are undertaken often under shady intel", then I assume that all the others in your view are random.

Right, because the first things that US airstrikes bring to mind is "random". Do you really process this stuff on some cretinous level where the absurd is on the same level of plausibility as the established and well-known doctrine of precision bombing?

If anything, I overestimated your grasp of what constitutes an airstrike. For that I apologise, naturally.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Jaakko


Right, because the first things that US airstrikes bring to mind is "random". Do you really process this stuff on some cretinous level where the absurd is on the same level of plausibility as the established and well-known doctrine of precision bombing?

If anything, I overestimated your grasp of what constitutes an airstrike. For that I apologise, naturally.

No, it was your ranting that made me think that you meant that.

[Dinner]

To clear the ignorance which has built up in this thread let us review a few facts.

1) In 2004 the Iraqi economy grew at an amazing 37% rate and economists are predicting a 41% growth rate in 2005. This is due to the ending of the sanctions, the restoration of normal business and the near complete lifting of all government tariffs. Under Saddam tarrifs and export controls averaged triple digits on most goods.

2) The New Iraqi Dinar has been doing well on international markets based upon strong domestic growth and increased rates of oil exporting. 1,950 NID per $U.S. in October 2003 to around 1,460 NID per $U.S. by mid-October 2004.

3) Financially the Iraqi government is better then it has been in decades. $55 billion in aid has been given with $33 billion more pledged plus creditors have slashed the national debt from $250 billion (if reporations owed are included) to only 20% of that amount. Iraq went from being the most indebted country on earth (as a percent of GDP) to only about as bad a Brazil.

4) In 1990 Iraq Generated 9,300MW of electricity but the 1991 war destroyed 90% of Iraq's electrical grid. The Iraqi government rebuilt throughout the 1990's though pre-invasion was only producing 4000 MW. Back in Nov 2004 (the most recent figures I found) 5000MW were being produced with demand at 7500 MW. That means 25% more electicity then pre-war and power plants currently under construction will increase capacity to 9000MW by the end of 2005 though this deadline might not be achieved.

5) Unemployment has halved since the invasion and with the projected strong economic growth it is expected to continue falling.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html