Why has Capitalism failed to produce optimal value everywhere?

[Dinner]

Then why did kid claim that value was created by decreasing prices? Your point about relative values differnet people place upon certain goods is well taken but kid's opening post seems to be saying something else.

[Kontiki]

Because kid is not using a constant definition of value. The only way value is created, in the sense that we normally think of it, if prices go down is if the price really did equal the value at some point. Of course, using that definition of value is different again because what's really happening is that you are paying less than the "value", you're not creating more "value".

Which is just a complicated way of saying that value is not fixed.

[chequita guevara]

I'm stayin' outta this.

[Colonâ„¢]

AFAIK optimal value usually implies the best possible solution in the allocation of means...

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I'm stayin' outta this.

That's probably a good idea. Although I'd be happy to discuss why labor shouldn't be compensated for the full value of production if capital is required for that production to happen in the first place.

[chequita guevara]

I'm not really interested in that discussion. I've got **** to do.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kontiki


While I agree with you on the face of it, that's not the point. It has nothing to do with education or skills involved - it's that working on saving your life is more valuable than working on a washing machine. It doesn't matter if I could walk into any corner store and find someone that can perform life-saving surgery, the act of saving my life is always more valuable to me than a washing machine. Therefore, an hour of labor saving my life is always worth vastly more to me than an hour assembling a washing machine, even if you needed an MIT doctorate to assemble that washing machine.

Your opinion as a person is irrelevant to the social value given, which was your statement. Society will value an hours labor of a surgeon more than an hour labor from a ditch digger, regardless of whether the surgery is lifesaving or not.

As for the loaf, kid's whole point is that price doesn't equal value. So while you're right that the price wouldn't change for either person, the value would. If the value changes, then there isn't an inherent value to that loaf of bread.

I agree there is no inherent value to a loaf, but not that value changes so drastically all based on personal isues.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by GePap


Your opinion as a person is irrelevant to the social value given, which was your statement. Society will value an hours labor of a surgeon more than an hour labor from a ditch digger, regardless of whether the surgery is lifesaving or not.

Fine, remove my opinion from the picture. I only threw it in there to differential myself from a sucidal person that wouldn't necessarily value their life highly. It still doesn't change the fact that there is a difference in the value of hour's labor based on what it produces, and not necessarily tied to the educational requirements to perform said hour of labor.

I agree there is no inherent value to a loaf, but not that value changes so drastically all based on personal isues.

The value to an individual or a group certainly does, but if you're summing everything up to a societal level, then you're right, there won't (or shouldn't) be such dramatic swings, unless the whole society is in some sort of crisis.

[Last Conformist]

Remind me why we should care about value anyway.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Re: Why has Capitalism failed to produce optimal value everywhere?

Originally posted by Kidicious
So according to capitalists value is equal to price in a free market. So then if the cost of something goes up, and the price goes up then value has been created? Just the opposite is true. Value is created by decreasing costs.

wtf?

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Kontiki


While I agree with you on the face of it, that's not the point. It has nothing to do with education or skills involved - it's that working on saving your life is more valuable than working on a washing machine. It doesn't matter if I could walk into any corner store and find someone that can perform life-saving surgery, the act of saving my life is always more valuable to me than a washing machine. Therefore, an hour of labor saving my life is always worth vastly more to me than an hour assembling a washing machine, even if you needed an MIT doctorate to assemble that washing machine.

As for the loaf, kid's whole point is that price doesn't equal value. So while you're right that the price wouldn't change for either person, the value would. If the value changes, then there isn't an inherent value to that loaf of bread.

I don't know, some of those new washing machines are pretty spiffy.

[Whoha]

Re: Why has Capitalism failed to produce optimal value everywhere?

Originally posted by Kidicious
So according to capitalists value is equal to price in a free market. So then if the cost of something goes up, and the price goes up then value has been created? Just the opposite is true. Value is created by decreasing costs.

According to capitalists, the market determines value. There is no demand for 10 ton nails, so the ones that got built were just left out to rust. They aren't worth anything to anyone. Meanwhile the more commonly used smaller nails are worth something. What people charge for an item doesn't determine what its value is though, it is what people are willing to pay for said item.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki
A loaf of bread is equally valuable to a starving person than it is to me right after I've stuffed myself at a buffet table.

Why are you misrepresenting me like that? That seemed to come out of the blue.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap
Well, Kid is wrong. There is an obvious difference in an hour of labor requiring a long education vs. an hour of basic manual labor.

And I stated that in the last thread.

As for the loaf, there the value is created by the individual, not the other way around. someone who is starving will value a loaf of bread more than a person who is stuffed. The actual value of the loaf has not changed thought- its not like if a starving man walked into a supermarket he would all of a sudden be charged more than someone who is not hungry.

I stated that too.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Then why did kid claim that value was created by decreasing prices? Your point about relative values differnet people place upon certain goods is well taken but kid's opening post seems to be saying something else.

Because if price = value, value can not be created when prices fall. Value is created when prices fall so price /= value.