Is Bush microwaving Iraqis?

[GePap]

A chemical agent used duiring war = chemical warfare. You do realize that more than just weapons are used in warfare, right? IIRC you were in a psy-ops unit- I assume you saw your mission as part of the war being conducted there, yet was your primary mission going around killing people using psyonich waves or something?

Again, Chemical warfare includes using chemical agents. You claimed it was not part of chemical warfare. You were wrong. You are right that it is not directly a chemical weapon.

[Dinner]

My point is that some people in this thread have tried to mischaractorize Agent Orange as a Chemical Weapon so they could claim the US used chemical weapons in Vietnam. That is a lie.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by realpolitic
Does any of you deny the use of DU, or believe that it's not a chemical or radiological weapon? This sure looks like another technological abomination.

DU is as much a chemical weapon as lead bullets are.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin
My point is that some people in this thread have tried to mischaractorize Agent Orange as a Chemical Weapon so they could claim the US used chemical weapons in Vietnam. That is a lie.

KamratX first said "chemical warfare", you then said Chemical weapon. I do not know if KamratX meant it as weapons, but he clearly said warfare, and in that sense, he was right, the US did use chemical warfare in Vietnam with its heavy use of chemical defoliant agents.

And those things were not just used to clear roadsides, but large areas of Jungle, and have dangerous heath consequences for decades, just as long ago laid mines do.

[Patroklos]

You remeber the article with the same dubious claim to fact that talked about the Americans using "Lighting Tanks?"

Tesla Tanks

[Zoid]

Oerdin, even if Agent Orange isn´t a weapon as such it sure was used as one. The massive defoliant campaigns was used to root out vietnamese troops or to prevent ambushes and stuff. It sure sounds like a weapon to me...

And the part about 1 million dead in an invasion attempt od Japan is load of bull****. It was just an excuse to drop the bombs. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, set up by the War Department in 1944 to study the results of aerial attacks in the war, interviewed hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, and reported just after the war:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to December 31 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

And why drop two bombs? Surely one would be enough? It was just pure chance that the bomb dropped over Hiroshima was a uranium bomb and the one dropped over Nagasaki was a plutonium one, was it?

And further more had the Soviets said that they would declare war on the Japanese 90 days after the end of the european war. As this was May 8 that would make it Aug 8. This is why the US had to have the unconditinal surrender of Japan before Aug 8. Otherwise they maybe had to share Japan with the Soviets, and that´s not what they wanted.

[Whoha]

Awesome, I love parking microwave tanks by a gla barracks and watch the thing just cook everyone that comes out.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


DU is as much a chemical weapon as lead bullets are.

Lead poisoning is bad, mmkay.

[realpolitic]

DU is as much a chemical weapon as lead bullets are.

Lead doesn't burn on impact; Uranium aresolizes; sub10 micron particles pass though the lungs into the body

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Who's the one displaying severe symptoms of paranoia?

You are mistaking healthy cynicism towards the Bush admin for paranoia. Must be something inside your head.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by realpolitic
Lead doesn't burn on impact; Uranium aresolizes; sub10 micron particles pass though the lungs into the body

Who gives a rat's ass since the target doesn't die from the armor piercing rounds breaking into small pieces. He dies because a chain gun just blew a half dozen .50 cal sized holes through his body.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
And the part about 1 million dead in an invasion attempt od Japan is load of bull****.

Not at all that was the best intelligence the war time leaders had to make their decisions. You, expost facto, come up with detailed interviews which took place after the war ended which use information none of the allied heads of state could possibly have known when they were making military decisions. Sounds like self serving revisionist nonsense to me; the first thing a good historian learns to to judge people in their historical context known what they know and more critically what they do not know. Your attempts to explain away things in a unhistoircal sense 60 years later smacks of personal bias more then anything.

And why drop two bombs? Surely one would be enough?

Clearly it was not. After he first bomb was dropped the Japanese were ordered to surrender unconditionally and given several days to evaluate the damage and to consider allied demands. The Japanese government rejected unconditional surrender and instead insisted on terms which the US could not accept due to the Yalta Agreement. Only after the Japanese government refused to unconditional surrender was the second bomb dropped and that is when the Japanese government finally agreed to unconditional surrender.

And further more had the Soviets said that they would declare war on the Japanese 90 days after the end of the european war. As this was May 8 that would make it Aug 8. This is why the US had to have the unconditinal surrender of Japan before Aug 8. Otherwise they maybe had to share Japan with the Soviets, and that´s not what they wanted.

I'm sure a desire to end it without further involving the Soviets was a desire though you are looking at things through eye which know the cold war is coming. Churchhill repeatedly was quoted as saying Truman was niave when it came to the good intentions of the Soviet government and the truth is the US government and people continued to look at the Soviets as allies and not rivials until after the war. True, certain military or political leaders started making the shift earlier but the fact remains the biggest factor weighting in Truman's mind was the idea of 1 million allied causualties. Truman repeatedly said that his job was to spare allied lives and make the enemy die instead thus when he was handed a way to force the enemy to surrender without risking millions of lives in an invasion he jumped at the chance.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Not at all that was the best intelligence the war time leaders had to make their decisions. You, expost facto, come up with detailed interviews which took place after the war ended which use information none of the allied heads of state could possibly have known when they were making military decisions. Sounds like self serving revisionist nonsense to me; the first thing a good historian learns to to judge people in their historical context known what they know and more critically what they do not know. Your attempts to explain away things in a unhistoircal sense 60 years later smacks of personal bias more then anything.

But the information regarding the situation in Japan was available to Truman and the military. The japanese code had been broken a while back and the messages were being intercepted, so Washington very well knew which state the Japanese war machine was in. A complete shambles. As Howard Zinn writes in his book:

It was known the Japanese had instructed their ambassador in Moscow to work on peace negotiations with the Allies. Japanese leaders had begun talking of surrender a year before this, and the Emperor himself had begun to suggest, in June 1945, that alternatives to fighting to the end be considered.

On July 13, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo wired his ambassador in Moscow: “Unconditional surrender is the only obstacle to peace.” Martin Sherwin, after an exhaustive study of the relevant historical documents, concludes: “Having broken the Japanese code before the war, American Intelligence was able to — and did — relay this message to the President, but it had no effect whatever on efforts to bring the war to conclusion.”

If only Americans had not insisted on unconditional surrender — that is, if they were willing to accept one condition to the surrender, that the Emperor, a holy figure to the Japanese, remain in place — the Japanese would have agreed to stop the war.

Why did the United States not take that small step to save both American and Japanese lives? Was it because too much money and effort had been invested in the atomic bomb not to drop it? General Leslie Groves, head of the Manhattan Project, described Truman as a man on a toboggan, the momentum too great to stop it.

The american lives mentioned of is the supposed (but not proven IIRC) american POW-camp located 1 mile north of Nagasaki.

Clearly it was not. After he first bomb was dropped the Japanese were ordered to surrender unconditionally and given several days to evaluate the damage and to consider allied demands. The Japanese government rejected unconditional surrender and instead insisted on terms which the US could not accept due to the Yalta Agreement. Only after the Japanese government refused to unconditional surrender was the second bomb dropped and that is when the Japanese government finally agreed to unconditional surrender.

Excuse me? AFAIK, the Nagasaki bomb was dropped on Aug 7, one day after the Hiroshima bomb.

I'm sure a desire to end it without further involving the Soviets was a desire though you are looking at things through eye which know the cold war is coming. Churchhill repeatedly was quoted as saying Truman was niave when it came to the good intentions of the Soviet government and the truth is the US government and people continued to look at the Soviets as allies and not rivials until after the war. True, certain military or political leaders started making the shift earlier but the fact remains the biggest factor weighting in Truman's mind was the idea of 1 million allied causualties. Truman repeatedly said that his job was to spare allied lives and make the enemy die instead thus when he was handed a way to force the enemy to surrender without risking millions of lives in an invasion he jumped at the chance.

Even if the cold war was some time away, there was the usual competition about the spoils of war, and how the loot would be divided. The US was not prepared to share Japan as they had been forced to share Germany according to the Yalta agreement. Remember that the Soviet-Union demanded half of Germany while Britain, France and the US had to split the other half. Stalin didn´t even want ot give a part of Germany to the french at first, but then relented with the demand that the french part had to come from the anglo/american part.

[Patroklos]

And the part about 1 million dead in an invasion attempt od Japan is load of bull****. It was just an excuse to drop the bombs. The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, set up by the War Department in 1944 to study the results of aerial attacks in the war, interviewed hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, and reported just after the war

Most of the Germans, Military and Civilian alike, emphatically denied EVER beind a Nazi after the war too.

Monday Monring Quarterbacking

I know this alternate history that serves your political purposes and ideology stuff is fun and all, and may work on you guys brainwashing the proles, but every serious historian from 1945 to now agrees with Oerdin timeline. I can't help it if you believe everything in each popular psuedo history book you find on the shelf. But for each one with a dubious author you find, I will bury it in 100 of my own.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Kamrat X

Excuse me? AFAIK, the Nagasaki bomb was dropped on Aug 7, one day after the Hiroshima bomb.

Check your history books one more time - it was Aug 9 nagasaki was hit.