Creationists PWNED

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
And there's no volcano in Egypt. Plus a tidal wave would only give you ten minutes time to cross from the time the sea receded.

But there's Santorini north of Egypt, and its eruption had dire consequences all round the Eastern Mediterranean.

[Last Conformist]

Infinite
1.immeasurably great 2.unbounded or unlimited 3.endless or innumerable
Infinity
1.the quality or state of being infinite etc etc etc.

Try thinking of some better answers please. I have seen some of your posts you seem to be a bright person or am I wrong again on my assumptions?

The reference, as was blatantly obvious, was to infinite cardinality; a mathematical concept that has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of God as commonly understood.

"Time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live." - Albert Einstein

Quantum mechanics treats time and space as a rigid, fixed, four dimensional coordinate system, however it shows that it is impossible to place any object in this coordinate system with absolute precision. So either time and space are flexible and relative to the observer, or they are fixed and the observer’s position as well as what he is observing can only be stated as a probability.

If you can solve this you will have found the holy grail of modern physics.

What the hell those this have to do with out-of-body experiences and the possibility of them being hallucinations?

(Incidentally, Einstein did away with the notion of time and space as a rigid coordinate system in 1905. The relativity of space of time to the observer is experimental fact since the better part of a century. I can only conclude you're totally clueless wrt physics.)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Spiffor
But there's Santorini north of Egypt, and its eruption had dire consequences all round the Eastern Mediterranean.

It wouldn't cause the sea to lower on the other side of the Sinai, however. And Santorini blew up circa 1200BCE, IIRC. Exodus happened around 1400BCE, IIRC. That's a two hundred year difference.

[Last Conformist]

Is the exodus itself a datable historical event? My encyclopaedia, which I'd normally rather accuse of giving to much credence to biblical accounts, rather uncharitably says that "some" of the Israelite tribes "may" have lived in northern Egypt before settling in Canaan.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Is the exodus itself a datable historical event?

Not with certainty, but there are Egyptian sources that place the Habiri revolt and conquest of Canaan in the reign of Ankhenaton, husband of Nefertiti and father ot Tutankhamon. That woulf put it from 1420BCE to 1380BCE.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by trev

It is unlikely to be a hallucination as those who have experienced such experienced often give detailed accounts of the actions of surgeons and nurses from a perspective that is above the operating table or other pespective that is obviously not from the eyes of the patient, accounts that are accurate. A hallucination could not result in this detailed accurate account and therefore attributing these reports to a soul/spirit leaving the body is much more likely, even if our technology cannot observe, or record such an event.

As far as I can see, your arguments is that such people have accurately described things they could not see from their eyes? That the perspective is "wrong" is neither here nor there - we all know the brain can construct "views" your eyes do not actually see. So, how about some linkage with credible reports of such people giving accounts of things they should neither be able to see nor reasonably infer they're there?

(It may interest you to know that out-of-body experiences can be induced by electrical stimulation to certain brain centers. Rather suggestive of a physiological origin of such experiences, not? It should also be possible to do controlled testing of whether this allows people to see thing they should not - I don't know if this has been done.)

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by trev

There are many things in the fossil record, sedimentary rock record etc which with todays knowledge cannot be adequately explained by EITHER evolution OR creation.

Such as?

However I am a thinking person and therefore I try to make best sense of the facts given in the context of known, proven physical laws. My thinking processes tell me that 'no rainbow prior to flood' means 'no rain prior to flood' as there is a connection by known physical laws between the two. Furthermore my thinking processes tell me that 'no rain means no uplift of air masses' and as mountains usually result in the uplift of air masses and consequent rain, this seems to preclude the presence of mountains. However the other possibility which is also viable I suppose is that the movement of air masses in the preflood world was so slow that any uplift associated with mountains only produced dew/mist/fog, not rain. I personally prefer the lack of high mountains theory but can accept that the other is possible also

Your thinking processes tell me you are clueless about meteorology. Others have already commented on that, tho, so let's move on.

Moreover, your thinking processes, well-informed or not, are addressing the wrong question. I asked for a reason to believe that the authors of Genesis thought that there was no mountains before the Flood. The author of Gen. 7:12-17 pretty patently thought the rainbow a especially created sign of God, not a mere optical effect caused by the presence of small refractive drops in the atmosphere. It follows that the author will not have thought that no rainbow before the flood meant no rain before the Flood.

Meanwhile, Gen. 2:5-6 - the source of the "watering mist" story - in no way implies that there was no rain before the Flood either; it's saying there was no plants before God created Adam*because God had not yet let rain fall. The most natural reading would to me seem to be that rain did fall before the Flood, just not in the very beginning.

I believe, incidentally, we got no explanation as to how all plant species survived the Flood.

* Just out of the curiosity, how'd you explain the fact that Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 starkly disagree on the relative chronology of the creation of humans and other animals?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Not with certainty, but there are Egyptian sources that place the Habiri revolt and conquest of Canaan in the reign of Ankhenaton, husband of Nefertiti and father ot Tutankhamon. That woulf put it from 1420BCE to 1380BCE.

Ah. And with Habiri sounding enticingly much like "Hebrews", no less. Do you have a linky with more information on this?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


It wouldn't cause the sea to lower on the other side of the Sinai, however. And Santorini blew up circa 1200BCE, IIRC. Exodus happened around 1400BCE, IIRC. That's a two hundred year difference.

Exodus 13:21-22 says God guided Moses where to go. There was a dark pillar cloud at day and a bright red fire pillar at night. Sounds like a volcano to me.

If the volcano was Santorini, it would be north, so the sea they crossed was not the Red Sea but a bay in the Mediterranian. Egypt also had darkness, dead cattle, hail, miscoloured stinky water, insects and toad invasion. A volcano could cause all this.

Also, the dates of the Bible are not that accurate, are they? Hey, it says Moses was 800 years old.

[trev]

Such as?

Please read all the posts, I mentioned earlier the Latrobe valley coal deposits in Victoria, Australia where there is approximately 100 seams of coal, all 18 inches or more thick over a depth of a thousand feet or more, where broken tree trunks are consistently spread through a number of layers, often inverted. Because of the presence of identifiable tree trunks that individually go through a number of layers, this sedimentation must have occurred very quickly, and the depth and area of sedimentation suggest an extreme flood event such as Noah's flood.

Hey, it says Moses was 800 years old.

Please check your facts, Moses age at death was put at 120 Years.

Your thinking processes tell me you are clueless about meteorology.

No one has yet presented any arguments against my meteorology reasoning and methoology

(It may interest you to know that out-of-body experiences can be induced by electrical stimulation to certain brain centers. Rather suggestive of a physiological origin of such experiences, not? It should also be possible to do controlled testing of whether this allows people to see thing they should not - I don't know if this has been done.)

This supports my argument, as near death experiences are associated with changes in electrical activity in the brain, ie a decrease in activity, or near or actual cessation of electrical activity for a period of time. But any experimentation designed to separate soul/spirit from the body is inherently dangerous and should be discouraged.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by trev

Please read all the posts, I mentioned earlier the Latrobe valley coal deposits in Victoria, Australia where there is approximately 100 seams of coal, all 18 inches or more thick over a depth of a thousand feet or more, where broken tree trunks are consistently spread through a number of layers, often inverted. Because of the presence of identifiable tree trunks that individually go through a number of layers, this sedimentation must have occurred very quickly, and the depth and area of sedimentation suggest an extreme flood event such as Noah's flood.

No, as was noted and you ignored, it is just evidence of a local flood.

In order for something like this to be proof of a global flood, EVERY place in the world would have to display the same geological evidence. This is certainly not the case.

And if the flood were responsible for all the mountains, for instance, they would all be the same age. They are not, as mountains such as the Appalachians are decidedly much younger than the Rockies or Himalayas.

Nobody is going to argue that there weren't big floods in certain places in the past. It's the evidence of a worldwide flood that is lacking. I posted the list of things we should see with a worldwide flood but are not evident. You seem to be ignoring that...wonder why?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And if the flood were responsible for all the mountains, for instance, they would all be the same age. They are not, as mountains such as the Appalachians are decidedly much younger than the Rockies or Himalayas.

You meant older. Doesn't change your argument, however.

[trev]

No, as was noted and you ignored, it is just evidence of a local flood.

To the best of my knowledge, no local flood has left even 100 feet of sedimentation in a small area in historical times, let alone coal seams etc, so how do you think that a local flood can leave the sedimentation and coal seams of the Latrobe valley, where there is a 1000 feet plus of coal seams and sedimentation over a large area, so do not keep invoking local floods for things local floods have never been observed doing.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Ah. And with Habiri sounding enticingly much like "Hebrews", no less. Do you have a linky with more information on this?

Well, this link seems to put the Habiri revolt closer to the time of the Santorini explosion and in the time of Ramses the Great.

http://www.imninalu.net/Habiru.htm

According to Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

The Amarna letters (which would place it in the reign of Ankhenaton) mention

In vain did Rib-Addi send touching appeals for aid to the distant Pharaoh, who was far too much engaged in his religious innovations to attend to such messages. What most interests us is the mention of troublesome invaders called sometimes sa-gas (a Babylonian ideogram meaning "robber"), sometimes Habiri. Who are these Habiri? Not, as was at first thought by some, specially the Israelites, but all those tribes of land-hungry nomads ("Hebrews") who were attracted by the wealth and luxury of the settled regions, and sought to appropriate it for themselves. Among these we may include not only the Israelites or tribes which afterwards became Israelitish, but the Moabites, Ammonites and Edomites.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by trev
To the best of my knowledge, no local flood has left even 100 feet of sedimentation in a small area in historical times, let alone coal seams etc, so how do you think that a local flood can leave the sedimentation and coal seams of the Latrobe valley, where there is a 1000 feet plus of coal seams and sedimentation over a large area, so do not keep invoking local floods for things local floods have never been observed doing.

Well, you'll have to forgive Boris for offering a possibility when he's just guessing. According to http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea...3/i2/coal.asp, it isn't that trees extend through layers, but that within the layers themselves, the trees are at various angles, which Answers in Genesis claims could only have resulted from a catastrophic one-time event.

This article from the same site, interestingly, provides an answer to you question about the presence of stree stumps that extrude from coal seems.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v1/i1/noah.asp

Despite his conclusions that the volcanism occured during the Genensis flood, the article seemed somewhat reasonable in its information. If a swamp were covered with with a layer of ash resulting from a volcanic eruption, that would produce the results you see in the Latrobe Valley.

Looking around, I see claims that by a preacher that the presence of pine trees in the coal disproves the swamp theory, because pine trees don't grow in swamps. As a resident of Florda, an can assure you that is quite false. Pines very much do grow in swamps.

In addition, your claim the clay could be used as pottery clay is nowhere substantiated.