Creationists PWNED

[trev]

Then again the question arises, what happened to the dinosaurs and Trilobites and certain other species where we to date find only fossils (but no living relatives remain)?

The fossil record is very patchy, eg the Woolemi Pine tree up to the last decade had been declared extinct for 300million years, but a small population of the tree has been recently found in an isolated rugged valley in the Blue Mountains near Sydney, Australia. So on evolutionist's reckoning this plant could survive for 300 million years dispite dramatic climate changes in that time, and leave no fossil evidence behind. However not all species have survived the climate changes, and more probably the encroachment of man, eg giant kangaroos disappeared from Australia after its colonization by the Aborigine population.There is considerable evidence of some dinosaurs existing, although rare to about 1700AD (check earlier post where I gave references- page 3 or 4 of this thread I think), some of these reference relate stories of tribal people in the Americas killing giant dinosaur birds, because they were eating people, so humans were instrumental in killing the last of the dinosaurs and making the family extinct.
In general species would adapt over a number of generations, so lowering the temperature for your tropical fish would not work, However, in a larger population of tropical fish with some genetic diversity, if the water temperature was lowered by 1C every generation, no doubt the species would continue to survive.

Originally, trev cited memory as something science cannot explain. Now that he's proven wrong, he back padelled to claimed that the complexity of memory is too complicated to have evolved naturally.

Science has offered insight into some of the processes involved in forming memory, and these processes are too complex to have evolved through evolution. But this fact does not alter my earlier views that science has not yet explained memory satisfactorily. How does the brain KNOW how to INTERPRET the synapses that has been set in the brain? This has not been explained and it was this question my proposed solution was trying to answer. Science has tried to answer how memery is set, but cannot answer how it is interpreted, and probably will not unless they look at ideas similar to what I posted

[Last Conformist]

Boris Gudonov:

It did not take until Linnaeus to realize that birds and bats were distinctly different classifications of animals. Birds have feathers and beaks, bats certainly do not. The phyla, while open to some flexibility, are not arbitrary classifications. Through genetic biology, we can tell that bats are far, far removed from birds. If the Bible were inerrant, you would think that the divine guidance would prevent the ancient authors from making such a mistake about claiming they are of the same category of animal.

Well, this might be an example of semantic change. I'm sure 17th C Swedes realized that birds and insects were quite different, yet they refered to both as fåglar, which in today's language means "birds". This is no stranger than that a word meaning basically "flying animals" got restricted to a particular class of such.


@UR: Read Gen. 1:2.


beingofone wrote:

How did Einstein sit at his desk with a pencil and paper and explore the entire universe? How is that possible with no lab equipment?

This relates to your apparent insanity and apostacy how?

There is only one singularity that exists in reality symbolized by the number zero, do you know what that is?
Your esoteric counsciousness, which is the only reality you have ever or will be aware of.

Perhaps the answer to the question is so easy a child understands it and "adults" overcomplicate it. Its so easy it becomes hard.

My consciousness is zero? That's quite possibly the cleverest insults I've heard in several days ...

As a child, I believed in the God of the Bible, and I was much too intelligent to equate him with infinity. I've since lost my faith, but not my ability of thinking straight.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by BlackCat
You claim that there could not have been any mountains because there was no rain and therefore the max heigth of the landscape must have been about 100 m.

To add to Blackcat's argument, I live in Florida, a state which is basically a big sand bar. With the exception of a some small hills in the northwest of the state, we don't get anywhere close to anything 100 meters over sea level. It rains all the freakin' time here in the summer.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by trev
There is considerable evidence of some dinosaurs existing, although rare to about 1700AD

Now you're just making stuff up.

[Proteus_MST]

[

Originally posted by trev

The fossil record is very patchy, eg the Woolemi Pine tree up to the last decade had been declared extinct for 300million years, but a small population of the tree has been recently found in an isolated rugged valley in the Blue Mountains near Sydney, Australia. So on evolutionist's reckoning this plant could survive for 300 million years dispite dramatic climate changes in that time, and leave no fossil evidence behind. However not all species have survived the climate changes, and more probably the encroachment of man, eg giant kangaroos disappeared from Australia after its colonization by the Aborigine population.There is considerable evidence of some dinosaurs existing, although rare to about 1700AD (check earlier post where I gave references- page 3 or 4 of this thread I think), some of these reference relate stories of tribal people in the Americas killing giant dinosaur birds, because they were eating people, so humans were instrumental in killing the last of the dinosaurs and making the family extinct.
In general species would adapt over a number of generations, so lowering the temperature for your tropical fish would not work, However, in a larger population of tropical fish with some genetic diversity, if the water temperature was lowered by 1C every generation, no doubt the species would continue to survive.

And how do they adapt in your model?
In Evolution Adaption works by having those members of a species who are (because of their genetic layout) better adapted to an environment getting more offspring, while those who aren´t fitted as well for their environment have fewer offspring.
Therefore the Adaption you mention could be explained very well by Evolution, especially as you mention a large population and a large genetic diversity as prerequisite.
So am I correct to assume that you don´t disgaree with the model for Adaption which is part of the Theory of Evolution?

And, as you mention that very slow gradual changes are necessary to adapt:
How fast were the changes in environment during the flood?
Especially the changes whithin the ocean should appear very fast [changes in salinity, but especially increases in water pressure on the ground of the oceans] as according to the bible within 40 days the water level hat reached its peak.
(and especially for sessile lifeforms [not only plants, but also marine lifeforms who live at the ground of the oceans] how were they affected by the sudden increase in water pressure [as, unlike fish, they couldn´t just swim to the higher areas where water pressure is much lower]
[but also for Fish the change in salinity by the flood should also much higher than the change you propose] )

There´s also another question which was posted in this thread by Boris, but AFAIK not yet answered, i.e. the question of what became of the diseases.

Disease Germs

For numerous communicable diseases, the only known “reservoir” is man. That is, the germs or viruses which cause these diseases can survive only in living human bodies or well-equipped laboratories. Well-known examples include measles, pneumococcal pneumonia, leprosy, typhus, typhoid fever, small pox, poliomyelitis, syphilis and gonorrhea. Was it Adam or Eve who was created with gonorrhea? How about syphilis? The scientific creationists insist on a completed creation, where the creator worked but six days and has been resting ever since. Thus, between them, Adam and Eve had to have been created with every one of these diseases. Later, somebody must have carried them onto Noah's Ark.

Note that the argument covers every disease germ or virus which can survive only in a specific host. But even if the Ark was a floating pesthouse, few of these diseases could have survived. In most cases, only two animals of each “kind” are supposed to have been on the Ark. Suppose the male of such a pair came down with such a disease shortly after the Ark embarked. He recovered, but passed the disease to his mate. She recovered, too, but had no other animal to pass the disease to, for the male was now immune. Every disease for which this cycle lasts less than a year should therefore have become extinct!

Creationists can't pin the blame for germs on Satan. If they do, the immediate question is: How do we know Satan didn't create the rest of the universe? That has frequently been proposed, and if Satan can create one thing, he can create another. If a creationist tries to claim germs are mutations of otherwise benign organisms (degenerate forms, of course), he will actually be arguing for evolution. Such hypothetical mutations could only be considered favorable, since only the mutated forms survived.

Taken from:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=3575767#post3575767

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by trev
Science has offered insight into some of the processes involved in forming memory, and these processes are too complex to have evolved through evolution.

A bald assertion.

Originally posted by trev
But this fact does not alter my earlier views that science has not yet explained memory satisfactorily.

Then? Is this a "god in the gaps" argument?

Originally posted by trev
How does the brain KNOW how to INTERPRET the synapses that has been set in the brain?

Do you know what synapes are? No, they are not what you think.

Originally posted by trev
This has not been explained

On what do you make this conclusion?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by trev
No, I agree with the ability of animals, plants etc to adapt to new situations, but not to change into totally new life.

You have been refuted conclusively - there are many observed instances of speciation.

[Boris Godunov]

Another problem with the "Flood made the mountains" hypothesis is that many, many valleys are obviously a product of glacial erosion. As is abudantly known, such erosion takes a long, long time. Certainly much more than 4,000 years.

[trev]

For numerous communicable diseases, the only known “reservoir” is man. That is, the germs or viruses which cause these diseases can survive only in living human bodies or well-equipped laboratories. Well-known examples include measles, pneumococcal pneumonia, leprosy, typhus, typhoid fever, small pox, poliomyelitis, syphilis and gonorrhea. Was it Adam or Eve who was created with gonorrhea? How about syphilis? The scientific creationists insist on a completed creation, where the creator worked but six days and has been resting ever since. Thus, between them, Adam and Eve had to have been created with every one of these diseases. Later, somebody must have carried them onto Noah's Ark.

Bacteria and viruses were all created during the six days of creation. As the creation was said to be 'very good' by God at the completion of those six days, all of the bacteria performed useful functions in the environment, or within their hosts. After the sin of Adam and Eve, God withdrew some of his preserving power from the creation and therefore it has gradually deteriorated since. Mutations have allowed some viruses and bacteria which were formerly useful to their host to become harmful and cause disease. In other cases they still perform useful functions in their original host, but a mutation allows them to jump to another species where they cause disease. But many bacteria still perform their useful functions in our bodies,particularly in our digestive system as originally created. Included in our DNA code and the DNA code of most species is DNA from viruses if I understand scientists correctly. This viral DNA was placed there at the time of creation so our bodies could create viruses as they were needed to perform their useful functions. But mutations have eroded the usefulness of most viruses over time. A probable useful function of viruses was to repair damage caused by the aging process to DNA and cellular functions. The erosion of this function has resulted in a shortening of human life from 900 years preflood, to 500 years post flood for Shem, about 150 years for Abraham, 120 years for Moses and later to about 60 -70 years. Modern medicine has allowed us to regain some of the lost lifespan.

[trev]

Another problem with the "Flood made the mountains" hypothesis is that many, many valleys are obviously a product of glacial erosion. As is abudantly known, such erosion takes a long, long time. Certainly much more than 4,000 years.

During the last stages of the flood and its immediate aftermath, sedimentary rocks were still solidifying, so mudflows and massive drainage flows as the floods left the earth's surface would have caused very rapid erosion in the still soft rock resulting in the amount of erosion that might normally take millions of years occurring in days or months. The first valleys formed would have been very broad, and as the rock hardened, the valleys would begin to narrow, thus accounting for the many valley shapes that are present today. Some of course were later deepened by glacial actions during colder periods in the earths history

[trev]

You have been refuted conclusively - there are many observed instances of speciation.

True, speciation has been observed but there has been no observed instance of new families of animals, plants etc. My statements allow for sufficient adaptability to create new species, but not sufficient for new families, and generally not new genuses.
What are classified as 'kind' in the bible would relate better to genus and family classifications than species classification. This is verified by the potential for limited interbreeding that is sometimes possible by closely related species ie interbreeding of zebra and donkey, of lion and tiger.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by trev
During the last stages of the flood and its immediate aftermath, sedimentary rocks were still solidifying, so mudflows and massive drainage flows as the floods left the earth's surface would have caused very rapid erosion in the still soft rock resulting in the amount of erosion that might normally take millions of years occurring in days or months.

What are you talking about?

1. Seimentary rocks form at the bottom of oceans, and they do not form in days.

2. There was no place for "mudflows and massive drainage flows" to go. The entire surface of the Earth was supposedly covered by water in your scenario - where would the water go?

3. Mountains don't form in years or even thousands of years. It takes billions of years.

Originally posted by trev
The first valleys formed would have been very broad, and as the rock hardened, the valleys would begin to narrow, thus accounting for the many valley shapes that are present today.

Sedimentary rocks don't harden due to loss of water or baking in the sun. They got that way because of the tremendous pressure from the huge column of sea water and sediment above. You remove that, and there's no hardening.

You have major problem with sedimentary rock layers. Not only do they take millions of years to form, but they also come in discrete, relatively thin layers. A massive flood from your scenario will create a very, very thick layer. We don't see anything like that.

So your scenario can't even explain the most basic things.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by trev
True, speciation has been observed but there has been no observed instance of new families of animals, plants etc. My statements allow for sufficient adaptability to create new species, but not sufficient for new families, and generally not new genuses.

Time. We haven't make observations for that long.

Originally posted by trev
What are classified as 'kind' in the bible would relate better to genus and family classifications than species classification.

These larger taxonomical divisions exist for convenience and are not rigidly defined. There are no clearcut boundaries, the transitions are gradual.

All these are in fact evidence in support of evolution.

[beingofone]

I give up because I have found proof that species evolve.

[beingofone]

Last Conformist

Well, this might be an example of semantic change.

I respect a devotion to truth - THANKS LC

This relates to your apparent insanity and apostacy how?

LOL - Hey wait was that a joke?
Refer to my attachment.

My consciousness is zero? That's quite possibly the cleverest insults I've heard in several days ...

It is funny that I have no formal training in physics, but I have sat in on roundtables with some of my friends who are. I do not know the terminology but they are open to new concepts - true science and truth seekers always are.
They have even adobted some of my ideas - hmm.