Creationists PWNED

[Whaleboy]

trev, my advice would be to stop embarrassing yourself and present some actual evidence, otherwise I might introduce turtles and elephants, or perhaps reason my way to saying that google is the messiah!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
UR - the fish can move around, like another poster mentioned. Did you know that deep sea fish move up and down every day In fact they have criteria for capturing the more delicate ones for release after being tagged.

I agree that fishes can move up and down

Do they move as a result of pressure increase, or do they move as a result of genetic programming? If it's the latter, they wouldn't move until it's too late.

As for Linux, you can just put Fedora Core 3 on an old box. The installation process should be reasonably automated and it should run reasonably fast.

[beingofone]

molly bloom

Really. So no one can 'argue' with Darwinism, because Darwin's theories are akin to the doctrine of the immaculate conception, or transsubstantiation, or predestination, or the trinity?

Care to show us how?

shawnmmcc

What's utterly ridiculous is that it's not in Biology we find evidence of Divine intervention, but in Physics. Some physicists determined that if certain basic forces were different by 0.1 percent - as in .001 - an earth where life could evolve would never have existed.

chegitz guevara

That's still a ridiculous argument. Just cuz we won the lottery doesnt mean devine intervention was involved. If things had been different, we wouldn't be here to appreciate the difference.

Here is the internal contradiction in athiesm.

1 - Creationist theory is flawed because they base their entire argument of the existence of God on the miraculous and supernatural. There is absolutley no proof that miraculous events have happened.
Ergo - no miracles = no God.

2- Just because it is a miracle that we exist in no way means there is divine intelligence or intervention.
Ergo - miracles = no God.


DarkCloud

And it's even more ridiculous when one considers that there could very possibly be an infinite number of universes and that thus, there are an infinite number of chances for an universe such as our own to have possibly arisen, even WITHOUT aid from a Divine Source.

An "infinite" hmm - sounds close to the definition of God. Infinite concepts are reserved for the supernatural by its very definition.

Just becasue something is very unlikely to have happened doesn't mean that God needs to have created it as such.

You mean like the resurrection of Jesus is just as unlikely as you existing as a cogent human?

shawnmmcc

I find the Divine setting the proper constants idea plausible, not definitive. The trillion universe lottery theory is also plausible. I'm never going to know, and the existance of an eternal soul/caring god is something that is moot - if that is not the case, then in dying I won't find out, I'll cease to exist or I will find out, and will discover if He is a merciful God - if he's an angry God, well I'm pwnd anyway.

Honesty is very refreshing to hear. A few quick questions.

1- Where do your thoughts come from? You are a biology expert yes? You can think of a monkey at anytime you want. Certainly your brain processed this thought but where did the thought originate?

2- If you lose a finger in an accident are you less aware of yourself as a person? Or if you lose 5 pounds are you less of a person in your awareness of self- existence?

3- Are you real? do you exist? Do you actually have experience, dreams and emotions?
You have emotions but you are the one experiencing these emotions. You have experience but you are the one having these. What and who exactly is experiencing this reality?

Urban Ranger

About what you are talking?

Atheism is simply rejection of bald assertions.

Athiesm asserts there is no God. That would require to know everything in the universe that can be known and experienced.

Quantum physics does not lead credence to Creationism.

Did you check the link I provided? Or have you checked into some of the latest theories?

That cannot be further from the truth. A hypothesis is subjected to testing, your faith does not.

I have faith that when I turn on the lightswitch - there will be light. I justed tested my faith in electricity.


SpencerH

Whats the point of discussing the logic/merits of creationism as if it is a scientific hypothesis? One can discuss the evidence supporting evolution, and there can be disagreement as to the merits of any data, but how does one discuss the "evidence" of a belief?

I cannot see, smell, hear, measure, or experiment in any measurable way your thoughts. Is there any proof that you experience your own thought other than you saying so?

Now my hypothesis is that you do have thoughts because the one proof I have is you posting here. I know that may be kind of weak proof but it is really all I have at this point to support my scientific hypothesis.

BTW Boris I dont agree that most scientists are willing to accept new theories. Based on my nearly 20 years of biological research, I find other scientists to be extremely skeptical of new ideas.

Totally my experience as well as most of the human race.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by beingofone
2- Just because it is a miracle that we exist in no way means there is divine intelligence or intervention.
Ergo - miracles = no God.

In what sense that our existence is a miracle?

Originally posted by beingofone
Athiesm asserts there is no God. That would require to know everything in the universe that can be known and experienced.

That's not what Atheism is. Atheism is "a-" + "theism," with the Greek prefix "a" standing for "without."

Even if that is true, your assertion still does not wash. Do unicorns exist? Did you check every single corner of this universe?

Originally posted by beingofone
Did you check the link I provided? Or have you checked into some of the latest theories?

What links?

Simply, Quantum Physics is not about how species arise. There are a few physcists on Poly, ask them if you want.

Originally posted by beingofone
I have faith that when I turn on the lightswitch - there will be light. I justed tested my faith in electricity.

You are better than me. I don't have faith in electricity. Yet my lights come on anyway.

You are confusing two meanings of "faith." The previous usage is about "firm belief in something for which there is no proof," here you are just using it interchangably with "confidence."

[beingofone]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


I think you posted all of the problems, most scientists have with christian fundamentalists (who take the bible literal).

As you already stated it is very difficult to translate the bible and therefore it could be that some things have other meanings than those you can find within the translated versions of the bible.
Well, for a fundamentalist these problems don´t seem to exist. It is written in their translation and therefore true and all other translations are false.
(btw. the literal translation from the aramaic sounds really good, are there any sources where you can find more of them [maybe even the whole bible translated this way?])
As you already said, the account of Noahs flood could also mean that it was "just" an enormous local flood, which was interpreted as global because for the early human tribes their surroundings were the "world" (and maybe it is the same flood all myths of the different cultures point to [because humankind was small enough at this time and not spread all around the earth, so that stories of the flood could reach all humans]).
I think a local flood would be much more acceptable to scientists [and wouldn´t lead to the problems you get if you try to explain a global flood ])


Well, as I think that all religions point to some eternal truth [but no single religions can claim that it is the sole possessor of the whole eternal truth, although many do it nevertheless] I can only agree with you there.

Both, religion as well as science could be (and was, as history shows) misused by humans to destroy other humans, instead of trying to makle this world a better place for all of them.

Maybe one day all people will recognize, that it doesn´t matter what religion someone adheres to or what colour his skin has, as we are all humans.
Sadly I think this day is far far away, as Religion is still used by all kinds of fundamentalists (of all kinds of religions, be it christians, muslims, jews od hinduists) to claim that their side is the good one and the others are the bad ones.
And science is still used to develop measures to more efficiently kill other people.

Thank you - I can appreciate your honest open approach to truth.
You can buy an Aramaic translation at Amazon and here is a link that is inteesting for translations.

http://www.aramaicbible.org/default.shtm

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by beingofone



Thank you - I can appreciate your honest open approach to truth.

As I would yours, if you had bothered to show us in detail how scientific theories (and evolution/natural selection were not latched upon or discovered solely by Darwin, but were being thought about by several different scientists) resemble articles of faith or religious dogma.

So far you haven't.

[trev]

Science I have found tends to ignore questions it cannot answer. Some examples of unanswered questions are

What is memory? (I know they say it resides in human brains but how does the brain know a certain arrangement of chemicals/molecules is a memory of a waterful seen years earlier for example, an image that can be recalled in detail)
How can migratory birds travel most of the length of the globe with the young travelling at a separate time to the adults as happens with some species?
How can 'out of body' experiences be explained? ( in particular when the patient views the operation from above the operating table as has happened many times)
How can twins feel the pain of the other twin when hundreds of miles apart and unaware of the event causing the pain?
It is because science cannot answer many questions sastisfactorily that it is necessary to turn to the book that has shown itself to have the answer through the ages, the BIBLE

[beingofone]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


In what sense that our existence is a miracle?

Well - when you consider the other option, I would say life is abounding of the miraculous.
But if it is no miracle perhaps you could explain life to me.

That's not what Atheism is. Atheism is "a-" + "theism," with the Greek prefix "a" standing for "without."

I see your point. Atheism means to believe there is no God.

Even if that is true, your assertion still does not wash. Do unicorns exist? Did you check every single corner of this universe?

You know I have not, but I will keep my eyes open.

But to assert that God does not exist - well its like this - you would have to be God, because you would have to know and experience everything, to know with absolute knowledge God does not exist.

What links?

Simply, Quantum Physics is not about how species arise. There are a few physcists on Poly, ask them if you want.

doubleslit



You are correct. Quantum physics deals with the construction or fabric of the reality of the universe.
Or how we perceive reality - its being debated.
I would say matter but that is becoming dated.

You are better than me. I don't have faith in electricity. Yet my lights come on anyway.

You are confusing two meanings of "faith." The previous usage is about "firm belief in something for which there is no proof," here you are just using it interchangably with "confidence."

I know what you mean, when the power goes down there is no reason to believe the lights will go on though. Have you considered that?

molly bloom

As I would yours, if you had bothered to show us in detail how scientific theories (and evolution/natural selection were not latched upon or discovered solely by Darwin, but were being thought about by several different scientists) resemble articles of faith or religious dogma.

Dogma
something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

Religion
a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


You have not yet shown how the scripture written in not one generation but over 1500 years with 40 different authors is not worthy of scientific merit.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by beingofone

quote:
Whats the point of discussing the logic/merits of creationism as if it is a scientific hypothesis? One can discuss the evidence supporting evolution, and there can be disagreement as to the merits of any data, but how does one discuss the "evidence" of a belief?

I cannot see, smell, hear, measure, or experiment in any measurable way your thoughts. Is there any proof that you experience your own thought other than you saying so?

If I postulate that thought is a function of brain activity I can then interfere with brain activity and observe the effects on thought. If there is a measurable effect then I deduce that brain activity effects thought. As importantly, I now have a testable scientific hypothesis that can be physically confirmed or refuted by others.

Now my hypothesis is that you do have thoughts because the one proof I have is you posting here. I know that may be kind of weak proof but it is really all I have at this point to support my scientific hypothesis.

How does one conduct a physical test for the presence of god?

Totally my experience as well as most of the human race.

The majority of the human race are skeptical of new scientific ideas because of ignorance. Scientists are also skeptical because of arrogance.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by trev
Science I have found tends to ignore questions it cannot answer. Some examples of unanswered questions are

What is memory? (I know they say it resides in human brains but how does the brain know a certain arrangement of chemicals/molecules is a memory of a waterful seen years earlier for example, an image that can be recalled in detail)
How can migratory birds travel most of the length of the globe with the young travelling at a separate time to the adults as happens with some species?
How can 'out of body' experiences be explained? ( in particular when the patient views the operation from above the operating table as has happened many times)
How can twins feel the pain of the other twin when hundreds of miles apart and unaware of the event causing the pain?
It is because science cannot answer many questions sastisfactorily that it is necessary to turn to the book that has shown itself to have the answer through the ages, the BIBLE

Science does not ignore these things, they just haven't found the answer yet. Or more likely, they have found some answers but you haven't heard about them (as you probably don't read scientific journals). It's also about priority, what questions those who are funding the research want to have answered.

Please explain to me how your above examples contradict Theory of Evolution or support Creationism? And how the Bible give the answer to your above questions?

[Whaleboy]

What is memory? (I know they say it resides in human brains but how does the brain know a certain arrangement of chemicals/molecules is a memory of a waterful seen years earlier for example, an image that can be recalled in detail)
How can migratory birds travel most of the length of the globe with the young travelling at a separate time to the adults as happens with some species?
How can 'out of body' experiences be explained? ( in particular when the patient views the operation from above the operating table as has happened many times)
How can twins feel the pain of the other twin when hundreds of miles apart and unaware of the event causing the pain?
It is because science cannot answer many questions sastisfactorily that it is necessary to turn to the book that has shown itself to have the answer through the ages, the BIBLE

As for memory and issues of consciousness, you demonstrate that you're not aware of neuroscience, psychology or philosophy.

As for such like the age of the earth, the origin of species, I think you'll find science very capable of answering. Further to your point, you demonstrate nothing in those examples that show they are beyond the remit of scientific method, so any hole in science as it is today is hardly a rational cause to invoke god.

Since when has the bible ever shown itself to have the answer, rather than offerning a series of inconsistent tautologies?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by trev
What is memory? (I know they say it resides in human brains but how does the brain know a certain arrangement of chemicals/molecules is a memory of a waterful seen years earlier for example, an image that can be recalled in detail)
How can migratory birds travel most of the length of the globe with the young travelling at a separate time to the adults as happens with some species?
How can 'out of body' experiences be explained? ( in particular when the patient views the operation from above the operating table as has happened many times)
How can twins feel the pain of the other twin when hundreds of miles apart and unaware of the event causing the pain?
It is because science cannot answer many questions sastisfactorily that it is necessary to turn to the book that has shown itself to have the answer through the ages, the BIBLE

Okay, I'll bite. How does the BIBLE answer the questions you posted?

I think this is going to be amusing.

[Whaleboy]

You get the popcorn, I'll bring the tissues

[Urban Ranger]

Deal

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by trev

My posts postulate that the climate was a high humidity climate, probably never below 95% humidity and presumably daytime temps of about 25 - 30C and night temperature about 1C less, this being a sufficient lowering of temp in a very high humidity climate to allow the formation of mists and dews. In this circumstance, moisture requirements for all plant is relatively low

As I'm strongly tempted to think you are fully aware of, there are very large number of species that could not survive under those conditions.