Cities in Iberia, 500 BC

[Harlan]

Not only the end date, I was actually talking about the map you're gonna use too, sorry I didn't make it clear enough. I think if you're not going to include the whle Mediterranean, it's better to go ahead just with the Western Med, which is a "logical" division. Having Athenians, Spartans and Persians out will surely make things easier for you.

First, you're ignoring the trade ties between Greece and the West, which are vital. There actually were a number of military ties as well that easily could have been much more important if things went a little different. The Athenian attempt to conquer Syracuse, for instance. Or Pyrrhus's attempt to control Italy and Greece.

Also, I'd say that the battle for Western Med dominance was already resolved at 202 BC. Carthage wasn't a real menace for Rome thereafter, they were allowed to keep just a few ships and their power wasn't comparable to that of Rome. In the end, Rome chose to wipe Carthage out because they had inherited a sort of psychological fear to Carthaginians from the days of Hannibal, I guess...

You're right that the last Punic War wasn't much of a fight. However, the main reason for it was because Carthage was rebounding so quickly and strongly. It was clear that soon they would be back to former strength.

By the way,
Here are some more things I learned looking at Harrison's Spain at the Dawn of History book (unfortunately I couldn't check it out).

Ullastret - one of the first and biggest towns in Spain, from about 700 to 200 BC. In very close symbiotic relationship with Emperion. The name sounds strange to me - is that the real name of the town, or just the name of the site?

Tivissa and Tarragona potential early towns. Tarrragona hard to say cos completely rebuilt in the Roman era.

Castulo was a big one, and Carmona.

The Ebro valley generally didn't urbanize until later. Most towns would be near the Western and Southern coasts. Harrison says the ancient Greek writers are probably the best guess sources right now, since so little archaeology has been done on this topic, especially outside Aragon and the Guadalquivir.

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Harlan
First, you're ignoring the trade ties between Greece and the West, which are vital. There actually were a number of military ties as well that easily could have been much more important if things went a little different. The Athenian attempt to conquer Syracuse, for instance. Or Pyrrhus's attempt to control Italy and Greece.

Yes, you're right regarding these ties, but that's nothing you could easily depict via events, or wonders (for the trade ties). That way you're sure this external influences on Western Med are going to happen indeed, if you trust the AI, nothing will happen... The only interesting thing would be to play as the Athenians, or even as the Epirus, but then, wouldn't a complete Mediterranean map be more useful?

I know I'm being a teaser, but this is quite similar to a idea I've been toying with myself...

I think I'll be able to provide you with more info on the berian cities tomorrow. For now, I'll just point out that according to my references, silver coins made in Rhode at 400 BC have been found.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Fiera
In fact, this map adds probability to Hispalis (ancient Seville) being Tartessos City.

I don't see big ships sailing thru what were probably risky shallow waters (although I don't know much about ancient naval construction)

Originally posted by Harlan
By the way, Waku, another thing I learned today is that the Greek place called Hemeroskopion really wasn't worth much.

Mainake hasn't been found either, in any case the existence of small greek factories in the punic area of influence supports the idea of the greek interest to sail to the Pillars (Tartessos?)

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Waku
I don't see big ships sailing thru what were probably risky shallow waters (although I don't know much about ancient naval construction)

Ancient ships had a very low draught (I don't know if this makes any sense in English: que tenÃan muy poco calado, vamos), even the biggest ones were able to sail thry shallow waters.

Mainake hasn't been found either, in any case the existence of small greek factories in the punic area of influence supports the idea of the greek interest to sail to the Pillars (Tartessos?)

Mainaké has been found, by Schulten.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Fiera
Mainaké has been found, by Schulten.

Did he really found it or...
did he think he found it?

[Jay Bee]

(Not gonna follow the red cloth this time, though )

[Fiera]

He did. It's one of the few things he acomplished that is universally acknowledged, I think. The unveiling of Numantia is another one.

[Prometeus]

Celtic Spain map number two

Originally posted by Harlan


Prometheus, I'll take your map, and I still need help on knowing which cities are in or out - please more wisdom from our Spanish experts!

Map is on the way, Harlan! Celtic sites from VII to III century BC in Spain. Note that are almost placed into two main groups in northern Spain.

PS a lot of these were little villages, smal fortresses or trading posts - ask help to JB or someone else, they can help you for sure!!!

PPS Dark grey areas are more then 500 meters high.

[Fiera]

Re: Mainaké

Sorry about this, after a further reading I've learnt that the city found by Schulten was most likely founded by the Phoenicians instead the Greeks, and thus, it can't qualify as the Greek Mainaké.

I was wrong.

[Waku]

I wasn't sure either I just remembered myself wondering over a map where the infierno could this road be, till I realized that I didn't have any of the two starting points as a clue

[Harlan]

So it seems that the Great Tartessos Debate, Part 2, is over. That's okay, but I'm bummed to see this thread die as well. Certain people (cough Fiera cough, cough Jay Bee cough cough ), promised to better determine which places were towns in 500 BC. Is the task simply too murky? There certainly is a dearth of info on some of this stuff.

[Jay Bee]

Harlan, I gave you my lists already The cities in them were all present at 500 BC. Now, if you need more let me know. In Kindal's list there are quite a few towns of Roman origin.