Cities in Iberia, 500 BC

[Shaka Naldur]

tell us a little more about your scenario Harlan,

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Harlan
Here's some info Firaxis has released:

I took that from a good summary of all of Civ3's known features you can find here:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml

Thanks for the info, Harlan, let's hope this feature is finally implemented in Civ3!

But still, I know some long anticipated cool features have been taken down in the last moment. I'm particularly worried that there isn't (AFAIK) a single screenshot depicting this different nationality of every citizen.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
The civilization limits you placed look very weird.

yep!
They don't match with those I've seen before, at least not with those I remember

[Waku]

I hate when I don't come with the exact thing I was thniking of, but it happened again: this is not exactly the map I'd like to attach, but again it can be of some help:

PS: Harlan, if you want a bigger version just let me know.

[Harlan]

Shaka,
Sure I'll explain a bit more. The scenario covers the Western Med including Greece. Starts in 500 BC or so, goes to about 100 BC. The idea is to play either the Carthaginians or Romans. Its not just the Punic Wars, but also the economic build up leading to those wars. Rome will be very tough to play, starting with just one small city and surrounded by much bigger players. Carthage starts out with many cities, but most very small, and Carthage is a trading nation with very little military capability, esp. on land. Trading actually will be a very big part and is much better modelled than in Civ2. The Cornwall tin area in England just barely makes it onto the map, so we can move from arguing about that to actually playing it.

I don't envision having any (or only a few) events in the scenario - just set them up and let them go. But I will give special units and abilities to certain civs. The Romans in particular will have more Great Leaders and other advantages to compensate for their horrible starting position.

Does that answer your question?

Fiera,
That feature is definitely in the game. If they changed it they would have changed the description on the official Civ3 site, as they have for some other things.

Waku,
If you don't like the borders, please please tell me how to change them! I've already used up 13 of the max number of civs Civ3 allows (16). Let's see if I can remember off hand:

Persians
Greeks
Athenians
Spartans
Celts
Etruscans
Romans
Italics
Syracusans
Carthaginians
Massailians
Tartessians
Iberians

So that still leaves three. I may not want to use all three on Iberia, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Harlan
Waku, If you don't like the borders, please please tell me how to change them!

Seems we posted at the same time.
The map above shows the post hallstat culture, the iberian culture , within the most important punic and greek colonies.

Edit: important collonies according to the book

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Harlan
Fiera,
That feature is definitely in the game. If they changed it they would have changed the description on the official Civ3 site, as they have for some other things.

Great then! This means scenario creators will be able to depict very interestnig and complex situations, I like it!

So regarding your scn, perhaps you can use this feature not only in Olisipo, but also in Carthaginian and Greek colonies (Gadir, Malaka, Sexi, Abdera, Emporion, etc), including a few Iberian citizens in all of them (most likely the workers or low class citizens if that's possible too).

Regarding the borders, I think they're not so strange, especially after your clarification regarding how will you use Celtiberians in the game. The only change I'd made is if you could extend south the western limit of the Celtiberian zone (does that sound clear enough?) As a matter of a fact, Helmantike was a Celtiberian city if I'm not wrong, and, perhaps Olisipo would fit under Celtiberain rule better than anything else, even if you plan on giving different nationalities to their citizens?

More ideas, who will be the Barbs? I'm not quite sure about how you want the Celtiberians and plain Celts to act on your scn, but I think these weren't much developed in Spain at 500 BC. Calling their settlements "cities" could even be too much.

Also, regarding the start date, you have a very interesting spot in 509 BC, date of the first treaty between Romasn and Carthaginians. Another landmark would be the Battle of Alalia (535 BC), where a Greek coalition fought against the Carthaginains and Etruscans.

The outcome of this battle was the reason given by Schulten to explain the promptly Tartessian decadency. Schulten thought it took the Carthaginians no more than five years to completely destroy Tartessos.

In fact, regarding the Tartessians, and no matter whether you give credit to Schulten, 500 BC seems to be a frank decadency period for them, and perhaps their inclussion in the scn is not that important after all.

The inclussion of Greece in the map brings some problems as well, 'cause Athens and Sparta existence will certainly much more boring without the Persians. I hope you get what I mean.

[Shaka Naldur]

harlan,


are you going to make for civ3?

I don´t understand, it hasn´t been released yet and there is already people working on scenarios??

[Harlan]

[kIndal]

Guys! I believe that the city of Ibiza is bad writing,is it??

[Harlan]

Fiera,
Hopefully that image I just posted makes things clearer. You can see that I'm including enough of the Persian civ to keep the Greeks busy. That's partly why I'm including the Athenians and Spartans as separate civs - so the Greeks will be too busy amongst themselves to do much elsewhere.

The Barbarians will probably be the Numidians (Africans) and the Illyrians in the Yugoslavia region. The Celts (and Celtic Iberians) I think are much underappreciated. As an example, look at all the dime a dozen maps of Greek and Phoenician colonies, yet to figure out the native equivalents or even bigger, we have to piece it together town by town. The more I'm learning, the more ancient towns I see they have. The Romans hated the Celts passionately more than any other people, and so always strove to depict them as more primitive than they really were.

I don't know if I'll put Iberians in the Carthaginian cities. Instead, my plan is just to make most of them very small- 1 or 2 population. The Carthaginian colonies started off mostly as very small trading posts - only 1 or 2 thousand people. The game also seems to have some slavery elements, so hopefully that can come into play. Mixed city populations will come in handy in many other cases though, for instance I can have most of the Persian cities on this map actually be ethnically Greek.

For the starting date, I'm leaning towards 500 BC or close to it, so perhaps the kingdom of Tartessos is destroyed by then. This is reflected in the new map, where their boundaries are more of the various ethnic groups down there, including the Tudetanians. I would like to hear more on why/when Tartessos was destroyed to make the final decision on this.

I hope the Iberian borders look better now - I was trying to match the borders of Waku's map in this latest version.

Shaka,
Yes I'm making this for Civ3. I'm not letting the fact that the game hasn't been released hold me back. I always do a lot of planning before I start making a scenario on the historical background, so I don't need the game to be released to be able to do that.

By the way, just today we got our first partial screenshot of some of the editing tools. Looks like no need to mess around with rules.txt anymore! Its yet another confirmation for Fiera about the race concept which may even be different from the culture concept (meaning, you have different races within one cultural grouping - the game ships with five cultural groupings each with their own architecture and so on). So races of the same cultural group as you can assimilate into your civ faster than those of different cultural groupings. That's just a guess, though)

http://www.cgonline.com/images/previ...-03-p1-b14.jpg

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Harlan
Fiera,
Hopefully that image I just posted makes things clearer. You can see that I'm including enough of the Persian civ to keep the Greeks busy. That's partly why I'm including the Athenians and Spartans as separate civs - so the Greeks will be too busy amongst themselves to do much elsewhere.

Yes, it's all clearer now. But I'm wondering: what will be the time span of the scn? If you plan on just reaching the end of the Second Punic War (202 BC), you could easily go without Greece and Minor Asia (and still have the Siracusans and the Greek cities in Italy -Tarento, Sibaris, Cotrone, Region, etc- as a separate civ).

PS: the editor tool looks great! While I'm not too optimistic about Civ3 per se, I think that we will get to see and play a lot of good scenarios in a few months after its release!

[Waku]

Originally posted by Harlan
I would like to hear more on why/when Tartessos was destroyed to make the final decision on this.

I'll try to quote a book I've got with me:
Economic decadence?
before 500BC:
-Tartessian controlled tin traffic from Britain (sea route).
after 500BC:
-Massalia discovered new tin routes thru the Gaul.
-Gadir (admiral Himilco) discovered the sea route to Britain.

Destroyed by Gadir?
there would be some rivalry between them.

Destroyed by Carthage?
easy solution but at that time Carthage didn't show much interest in the peninsula.

Destroyed by Celtics
quick raids wouldn't make it disappear
(celtic names among later turdetan kings)

internal decadence
-lack of power after Argantonios long reign

JB: they're only theories

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Waku

after 500BC:

-Gadir (admiral Himilco) discovered the sea route to Britain.

Hmm, but wasn't Himilco Carthaginian himself? That's what I had always thought...

[Waku]

Originally posted by Fiera
Hmm, but wasn't Himilco Carthaginian himself? That's what I had always thought...

you're right Fiera, I was shrinking a long sentence: "After Himilco's trip Gadir took the control of that traffic". My fault anyway