Cities in Iberia, 500 BC

[Harlan]

Aaagh - too many Jesuses! Jesus M, when you emailed me with a city list, I thought it was Jesus B, cos he'd emailed me with a city list earlier. I sent Jesus M the lastest of the map I'm working on, thinking it was going to Jesus B.

So, to make sure that all the Jesuses of the world (and anyone else interested) can see what I'm doing I'll post the map here instead of emailing.

Note this is just part of the larger map, which goes all the way to and includes Greece.



Some problems I'm having. Regarding Tartessos (oh no, not again!), I understand the last estimates of its existence as some kind of political unity was in 510 BC. Probably earlier. Rome, however, only became independent in 509 BC. Most of my data is for 500 BC exactly. So, should I move back the scenario starting time a few decades, to include the destruction of Tartessos war, or have it start in 500 BC with Tartessos already destroyed and maybe Turdetanians in their place?

What to do with Olisipo is also bothering me. I think its a total shot in the dark if its Tartessian, Phoenician or Iberian, and I can't make up my mind. I have to give it to somebody!

How should I break up the non-Greek and Carthaginian element of Iberia into civs, given I have a limited number of slots? I could add one or two more civs in Iberia, if there's good reason to.

Finally, regarding the cities in Iberia in 500 BC. Thanks a ton for everyone's help so far. Kindal, I haven't included any from your most recent list (yet) cos you didn't tell me which one if any from that list is IMP IMP!

But this is a general problem I have, that we could probably come up with lots of candidates, probably more than I'd want to add (I could add some more to the map, but who knows, there may be dozens more lurking out there and that's too many). So which ones really are THE biggest and best city candidates for 500 BC? What's the evidence for the ones on the map right now that they even existed in 500 BC? The Greek and Carthaginian ones on the map right now I'm confident in, but for the others I mostly have nothing but a city name from someone's list, and would like to know more.

[kIndal]

Olisipo...I believe it was a celt iberian city.

About my list the biggest were Malaca, Sexi, Abdera, Basti, Urci and Castulo, other ones with some importance were Ilorci (it had a important siege agaisnt Romans), Masti (but their situation is unkwoned), Baria (was a middle phoenician village), Ilici ( I amnot sure but UI believe it was a important one, I dont remember why)

[Jay Bee]

I see that the scenario is finally going to be in the historical fiction genre (sorry, just kidding, I could not help it)

Numantia did not exist in 500 BC, it was founded much later. Can rememeber the exact date but it was in the III-II century BC.

According to the classic sources Corduba was one of the three most important cities of the Baetica (The others being Gades and Hispalis).

The civilization limits you placed look very weird.

[Harlan]

Hey Jay Bee (I'm going to use nicknames now to avoid confusion!),
That's why you should help me out, and set me on the right path. I'm happy to delete Numantia and do whatever else the Spanish brain trust has to say to make this map more accurate.

Corduba should already be represented as Ategua.

Civilization boundaries I'm very open to suggestions. These are very arbitrary lines. The Celtiberian civ I'm loosely defining as all Celts in Iberia, not just those called Celtiberians. Unless you have a better idea. I can only have so many civs, I can't have one for every major cultural grouping.

Kindal,
There is speculation Olisipo was a Tartessian town (the name is Tartessian linguistically for instance). Also speculation the town could have been a Phoenician colony (they've found a colony from them a short distance away from the 7th century BC). Plus it could have been native Iberian. I think the verdict is out - I'm guessing the modern city of Lisbon has obliterated the sites that could provide answers, as happened with Cadiz / Gadir. Unless there's more I don't know, which could very well be.

[Jay Bee]

1) Then I suggest naming the city Corduba instead of Ategua

2) I suggest Celtic Iberia instead of the more confusing Celtiberia.

[Jay Bee]

More

1) All the sources I have read seem to agree the the first settlement in what is today Olisipo was of Phoenician origin. But it' also true that archeological remains of Tartessian origin have been found as well. Moreover I always believed that the Romans captured Olisipo from the Celts, not the Carthaginians Yes, a mess.

2) I always thought that there is no doubt at all that Cadiz was Phoenician and only Phoenician in its origins. That the city was also thought to be the mythical Tartessos is part of the legend imho.

[Harlan]

Jay Bee,
Look at your post from 12-10-2001 15:06 on this thread. You're the one who told me to call Cordoba Ategua!

Cadiz is Phoenician Gadir only, but I was referring to the huge amount of archeological evidence lost there generally, stuff that could have told us volumes about the Tartessian kingdom. Literally hundreds of shipwrecks were bulldozed over to extend the city into the harbor.

[Jay Bee]

oops, sorry. I did not explain myself clearly enough. There is Cordoba city and there is Cordoba province. Ategua is today's Santa Cruz in the province of Cordoba. Cordoba City, obviously also in the province of Cordoba, is ancient Corduba.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

If Olisipo is so confusing, why not make it a barbarian city with a palace so that it can't be bribed? It then belongs to nobody, but can still be sacked or otherwise play a role in the game.

[kIndal]

I have found some more cities, all are written below and the most importnat are marked with IMP IMP

Well, I have found a division between problematics celtiberians: celtiberian citeriors and celtiberian ulteriors, first ones are near rivers Jalon and Jiloca and in the right side of Ebro. The other ones were placed in from Duero to Tajo rivers.

*Lusones tribe:
-Contrebia(near Daroca)
-Bilbilis (Calatayud) IMP IMP
*Belos tribe
-Segeda(near Belmonte) IMP
-Arcobriga( Arcos de Jalon)

*Arevacos&Pelendoness:
-Clunia (Peñalba de Casttro) IMP IMP
-Termantia (Montejo de la Sierra) IMP
- Vxama Argalea (Burgo de Osma)
-Segontia (Sigüenza)
-Varea (Varia)
-Tritium (Tricio)

*Carpetanos tribe:
- Toletum (Toledo) IMP
-Complutum (Alcala de Henares)
-Consabura (Consuegra)

*Vacceos tribe:
-Rauda (Roa del Duero)
-Pallantia (Palencia) IMP IMP
-Viminatium (Terradillos-Leon)
-Oceloduri (Zamora) IMP
-Septimanca (Simancas)
-Cauca (Coca) IMP IMP

*Vetones tribe:
-Salmantica (Salamanca)IMP IMP
-Bletisa (Ledesma)
-Mirobriga (Ciudad Rodrigo) IMP IMP
-Lama (Baños de Montemayor)
-Capara (Caparra)
-Obila? (Avila)
-Turgallium (Trujillo)

*Turdetanian:
-Ossonoba (near Faro) IMP IMP
-Balsa (Tavira)
-Salacia (Alcacer do Sal)
-Caettobriga (Setubal) IMP

*Lusitanian:
-Ebura (Evora)
-Caurium (Coria)
-Aeminium (coimbra)

*Berones&Vasconas:
-Cascatum (cascante)
-Ilurcis or Graccurris (Alfaro)
-Calagurris (Calahorra) IMP
-Segia (Egea de los Caballeros)

*Caristos:
-Suessatio (Kutzemendi) IMP
-Veleia (Iruña) IMP IMP

*Autrigones:
-Flaviobriga (Castro Urdiales) IMP IMP
-Virobesca (Briviesca) IMP IMP


I know that there are so much cities, I believe that with help of other people you can choose the most importnat ones

[Prometeus]

Ahem, Harlan...
Corunna was named Brigantium...

The same tribal name as that England celtic tribe, the Briganti. And it is mentioned as starting point of Goidel to Ireland, too.

[Harlan]

Kindal,
I'll be happy to add some more of those cities, but please tell, what exactly is the evidence making you mark some cities with IMP? For all I know, you could be completely mad, and just marking cities IMP at random. We especially need to be careful of the 500 BC date, and not just have cities that were big a few hundred years later when the Romans came.

Prometheus,
Here's some text I posted earlier in this thread, from some kind of La Coruna history website I found. I gathered from this that Brigantium was the name the Romans gave it, and the name prior to that was Corunna or something close to it (Crunna, perhaps).

"La Coruña, has always been a city with a rich sense of history. Due to this historians often dispute the various possible origins and changes with which the city's name has undergone. Differing ancient civilizations always recognized it, but refered to it by different names. "Brigantia" for the Romans, "Far" according to documented Viking sagas of the VII century. By the way, "Faro" in Spanish means lighthouse - furthering the belief that there is a probabe nexus there. In the Latin age La Coruña was called "Clunia or Crunia." According to the evidence of that historical period, King Breogan supposedly founded the city at the start of the XII century BC... The first name registered as legend has it was "Crunna" - which is but another derivative of name of the city... Other historians believe that the name of the city originates from the god "Cronos" , a possible derivative of either Cronia, Crunia, or Coruña."

Jay Bee,
I will make the Cordoba change - you sure though, that that was the name way back then? That would be really incredible consistency. Also, you mentioned something about having a Tartessos city list - I'm not interested in the whole thing, but which ones were clearly the biggest (that we know of)? Or, to put it another way, how would you change that part of the map, keeping in mind that I can't have two cities only a few miles from each other.

Marquis,
About Olisipo. Since Civ3 is different from Civ2, I can do some different things. There's the cultural aspect, so I can have some citizens in Olisipo be Tartessian, others Iberian and still others Carthaginian. That way, whichever of the three civs conquer it, they have some friendly and some hostile population to deal with. Perhaps what happened in real life was that it changed hands several times through the centuries.

[kIndal]

hehehe could be that I am a bit mad, but not much
I have taken this names from a book and I have marked with IMP everyones that in the book said that are more important and biggest, some ones are named as the most important cities of a tribe or somehting like this, I cannot exactly describe the reason because I don´t know just I write the names that appears in a book
About the date, I cannot be sure, but this book speak about pre roman age so...
I have written them with the pourpose that other people said which could be the most accurates than the ones marked with IMP by me

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Harlan
About Olisipo. Since Civ3 is different from Civ2, I can do some different things. There's the cultural aspect, so I can have some citizens in Olisipo be Tartessian, others Iberian and still others Carthaginian. That way, whichever of the three civs conquer it, they have some friendly and some hostile population to deal with. Perhaps what happened in real life was that it changed hands several times through the centuries.

Sorry, this is just a Civ3-related question, but are you sure culture is gonna work "per citizen" in Civ3? It would be a great feature, but if it's in, I've managed to miss it...

[Harlan]

Here's some info Firaxis has released:

Every population point that gets built in Civilization III has a nationality. If you're France, every person that's born in one of your cities is French, and they have cultural ties to France.
When a city is conquered by a civ, the citizens in the conquered city will retain their nationality, even as new citizens are born with the nationality of the conquering civ. For example, if the Greeks capture Paris, a pop 5 city, all five of those existing citizens retain their French nationality, even though new citizens that appear in the city will be Greek. These "foreign nationals" may "resist" for many game turns, depending on the cultures of the conquering civ and the conquered civ. Resisters do not generate any output and can throw your cities into revolt.
This can have dramatic effects upon the game, especially during times of war. Say, for example, the Romans capture a Babylonian city, the Babylonian people will become resistors. Not only will they refuse to work, but they will lower the defense value of the city so that Babylonian forces can easily retake it. And in a worst-case scenario, some cities may even revolt and try to revert back to their original civilization.
Regardless of how strong your culture is, there is always the possibility that a smaller captured city with fewer cultural points will revolt if its ties to the opposing civilization are too strong.


I took that from a good summary of all of Civ3's known features you can find here:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml