Cities in Iberia, 500 BC

[Harlan]

Time to move this discussion to a new thread. For those new to this, I'm planning on making a Civ3 scenario starting in the year 500 BC, and finding out which cities existed in Iberia at that time is extremely difficult. By city, I'll take most anything noticably larger than the average Celtic hill-fort. I'm also keen on finding out what their real names were then, not the names they had later.

I was at the library today, and have a few leads. I'll post them in a bit, so hopefully this thread can build on them.

[Harlan]

The book I've got is called The Regions of Spain, by Robert W. Kern, and occasionally it talks about pre-Roman histories of cities.

Tarragona: Prehistoric settlers favored Tarragona's location for its good anchorage and hilly protection near the shore. The native Iberian Cassetani tribe erected the first city walls before their defeat by the Carthaginians in the fourth century BC.

Gipuzkoa: The Tardesoian site of Deva (Dena) in Guipuzcoa became a large, active town by 800 BC, and fell to Pompey in 75 BC.

Teruel: Teruel was protected by rough terrain not far from the east Med coast. Ruins have been found of the indigenous Celtic God Lug as well as traces of the 3rd century BC Greeek acropolis of Azaila, with its motif of bulls decorated by astral signs. Romans attacked Hannibal here in 218 BC, destroying the village of Turba.

Huesca (Roman and Visigothic name Osca): The fertile plain of Huesca attracted the Celtiberians, who built the first walled town on the peninsula.

Seville: The Carthaginians found a small Celtiberian town here called Matres Aufaniae.

Malaga: The ancient seaport originated as a Phoenician seaport called Malac, their word for salt.

Cordoba: The Celtiberian village here rose under the Romans as a provincial capital called Claudio Marcelo.

La Coruna: La Coruna, founded by the Phoenicians (!), grew to be the chief Roman settlement in Galicia by 137 BC.

Murcia: Large populations of Turdetani people and indigenous Bastetani and Iberians lived a settled life in the Segura Valley. The Iberians attracted the attention of writers such as Livy and Polybius, who may have named the peninsula for them. The tribes' prosperity also attracted trading colonies of Phoenicians, Greeks and Carthaginians.

Pamplona: Vascones, or Basques, inhabited the area and created villages like Azilian, around 800 BC. Silver mining attracted the Romans.

Toledo: No city has a better natural defensive location. Founded in very early times, it passed through the hands of Celtiberians, Romans and Visigoths.

Salamanca: Salamanca originated as an early Celtiberian trading center. Primitive fortresses indicate a well organized, skilled society.

Soria: Numantia on the upper Duero River was an important center of Celtiberian life, more densely populated than it is today.

Valencia: Bronze Age culture by Iberian tribes created a society by 1200 BC that developed simple river bottom irrigation and sheep raising. Liria developed high quality pottery by the 3rd century BC. Greeks founded Thurias in the sixth century, soon the largest colony of the eastern Mediterranean coast.

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Wow, there's certainly a lot of city potential material there. Looks like Iberia in 500 BC had more cities than I thought, even though the status of many of the above are still fuzzy.

BTW, the book is incredibly frustrating. Its organized by city, and sometimes gives lots of detail on ancient times, sometimes none at all. Additionally, probably if there was a town that isn't currently a decent sized Spanish town, it doesn't get mentioned at all, nor does anything in Portugal at all.

Its interesting that NO map I have shows the Greek colony of Thurias, yet its called the largest colony on the entire coast! And the La Coruna Phoenician connection is interesting to say the least.

More info is needed on these cases, not to mention others not in the book (and this taps out all my library has on this material). The "real" native city names, too. Fiera, Jesus, anyone else - please help!

[Harlan]

Intrigued by the La Coruna info, here's some more I found on the web about it:

La Coruña, has always been a city with a rich sense of history. Due to this historians often dispute the various possible origins and changes with which the city's name has undergone. Differing ancient civilizations always recognized it, but refered to it by different names. "Brigantia" for the Romans, "Far" according to documented Viking sagas of the VII century. By the way, "Faro" in Spanish means lighthouse - furthering the belief that there is a probabe nexus there. In the Latin age La Coruña was called "Clunia or Crunia." According to the evidence of that historical period, King Breogan supposedly founded the city at the start of the XII century BC.

According to legend the city was founded when Hercules (Greek Mythology) defeated Gerion in a savage battle. Legend has it that Hercules beheaded evil Gerion and buried his head in the foundations of the towering lighthouse in whom's name it was memoralized. After Hercules' glorious victory he gave the orders to build a city adjacent to the new lighthouse and to have all its inhabitants inscribe their names. The first name registered as legend has it was "Crunna" - which is but another derivative of name of the city.

Other historians believe that the name of the city originates from the god "Cronos" , a possible derivative of either Cronia, Crunia, or Coruña. The tale behind this god is that his three sons expelled him the outer limits of hell. The entrance of such place according to legend would be found around the proximity of the Tower of Hercules. In interpreting this the reader must take into consideration that the Galician coastline represented the outermost known outpost of the Ancient world. Also remember back then that ships supposedly fell off the edge of the map, cause of course the world was flat. As a result the "Torre de Hercule" represented a seafarer's last vision prior to passing to the next world.

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Here's a whole other webpage about it. It has a rather wierd religious agenda and a lot of red herrings, including a thing on a Biblical Joseph that is probably complete BS, but nonetheless read it for the many interesting ancient quotations:

http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/pt77.htm

Judging from that, it sounds like this town was the last "civilized" stop before reaching the islands of tin. Probably founded by Celts (King Breogan?) but eventually taken over or simply used by Phoenicians. Other websites confirm the Phoenician connection speculatively from around 500 BC, and point out it turned into the large Roman town of Brigantium. Its known the tower wasn't built until Roman times, so the Hercules story can be safely ignored.

What interesting stuff I'm learning!

[jasev]

Hey! Did you forget about Cadiz (Gadir)? It already existed before 1000bc, and was the root of the Tartessian trade with Phoenitians.
Huelva (Onuba) also existed, and some people think a Tartessian city, if not Tartessos itself, located there.
Phoenicians had any comercial colonies, like Almuñécar (Sexi), Adra (Abdera) and Málaga (Málake) as you wrote.
Cástulo, located near today's Linares, was also an important city, because its strategic emplacement and the mineral abundance in the zone.

Yes, I know, I'm just talking about Andalusian cities. I'll try to find others, bust there's a problem: Roman and Greek historians, who are the wells of our historical knowledge, have only records of greek expeditions, who mainly occured in southern Spain.

P.S You must excuse my poor english.

Javier Arriaga

[Waku]

Originally posted by jasev
Hey! Did you forget about Cadiz (Gadir)?

Thank u Javi but I suspect Harlan's looking for those not so well known.

[Jay Bee]

I told you already that there were many "cities" in Iberia in 500 BC.

Couple of things. Tarraco was called Cesse before the Romans (Cessetani were the Iberian founder tribe).

AFAIK, Coruña sits where the ancient Roman town Brigantium was. There probably was a Celtic castro before. That the Phoenicians traded with these people seems not unreasonable to me at all. After all the Phoenicians traded extensively with many other tribes in the area. But that the Phoenicians founded Coruña I find it a bit odd.

Sevilla and Cordoba were not Celtiberian cities. They were not even Celtic. Celtiberia roughly corresponds to what today is Eastern Old Castile and Western Aragon. I guess this is another example of the confusion regarding the name 'Celtiberia'. Most of the cities you have listed as Celtiberians were not Celtiberian at all. I think the only ones you got right in that respect were Teruel and Soria and perhaps Huesca.

Toledo was very close to Celtiberia but wasn't a Celtiberian city either. Toledo was the capital of the Carpetanii, who also settled the place where the city of Madrid lies today (I am from Madrid, you know ).

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Sevilla and Cordoba were not Celtiberian cities. They were not even Celtic

I think Córdoba was founded by the Carthaginians at the beginning, or a few years before, of the Second Punic War. Perhaps there was an Iberian village before.

[Jay Bee]

My book says that its name (Corduba) delates its unmistakeable Iberian origin. Refounded in 152 BC by Marcus Claudius Marcellus as the capital of Hispania Ulterior. Not a single reference to the Carthaginians.

[Fiera]

I can't seem to find where have I read that. Perhaps Polibius? Will keep on looking for it...

[Harlan]

Jasev,
Its not a question of forgetting those other cities. But, as I said, that book was spotty, not mentioning certain things at all. I've heard about most of the ones you mention through other sources - that post was just quotes from that book.

Speaking of said book, it seems to have a wierd method of referring to just about ANY pre-Roman site as Celtiberian. So where it says Celtiberian, read pre-Roman.

I don't think the Phoenicians founded La Coruna, and in fact we have a story that described a Celtic foundation. But they could have traded / stopped there so long that it seems as if they founded it, in their own minds .

[Jay Bee]

Here's a first bunch of cities. In brackets the current name.

Phoenician cities

Abdera (Adra)
Baria (Villaricos)
Gades
Malaca (Málaga)
Sexi (Almuñecar)
Toscanos (Vélez-Málaga)

"Tartessian" settlements

Acinipo (Ronda)
Asta Regia (Mesas, Cádiz)
Ategua (Santa Cruz, Córdoba)
Carmo (Carmona)
Cástulo (Linares)
Onuba (Huelva)
Ebora (Sanlúcar)
Niebla (Niebla)
Hispalis (Sevilla)


I cannot guarantee that *all* the names correspond to those used in 500 BC. There are some that are more obvious than others (eg Niebla).

Fiera, Agree? Disagree?

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Malaca (Málaga)

If I don't recall it bad, the correct (if there is one) is Malaka... Don't forget that Carthago's language is a semitic one and in these languages the K letter is very used when you are transliterating them.

[Jay Bee]

Yes, you may be right, though it depends on what language you're translating into (and since the K is not a Latin letter... ).

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Jay Bee

Fiera, Agree? Disagree?

I mostly agree.

All of those Phoenician cities had been resettled or revived by the Carthaginians around 500 bC, except for Toscanos, as far as I know.

[Harlan]

Fiera,
Thanks for posting that. I was just about to post and say my Phoenicians book says most of the Phoenician settlements on the southern Spanish coast were abandoned in the mid-500s BC, some permanently. Toscanos the only one specifically mentioned in that regard.

So I'm glad to see the others were still there!

By the way, what do you think the cause of abandonment was? Tartessian aggression and/or political confusion back in Phoenicia or Carthage seem most likely as my guesses. What do the experts say?

Regarding Phoenican spelling, they had a nasty habit of not having vowels in their language. Cadiz, for instance, was spelled Gdr, which isn't too bad, but Leptis Magna in Africa was Lpqy! I'm all for trying to get an accurate a name as possible, but I gotta draw the line at no vowels. I guess the problem is that in many cases we'll never know what the vowels between were, except for famous cases like Carthage (Qarthadasht).