What if...? (Liberals and conservatives in Spain and Iberoamerica)

[Fiera]

I think it's fair we move the discussion here, as the other thread was intended for the unofficial Spanish civ for Civ3...

Let's see, Waku raised an interesting question:

The other thing I was pointing at was another "what if":

What if the Spanish constitution of 1812 hadn't been abolished? would we be talking now about a Bolivar?

Alfonsus already put his two cents in. I also think that the name BolÃvar wouldn't mean much to us today, and that we would be talking about a very different history for our country.

Anyways, the point is how could we have resisted the foreign pressure? Even a far more powerful France was beaten by the Santa Alianza... what could have a liberal Spain done against that?

As Alfonsus pointed out, the foreign influence, which began with Napoleón's invasion, ws disgraceful for the developement of our country all along the 19th century.

[Jay Bee]

Re: What if...? (Liberals and conservatives in Spain and Iberoamerica)

Just a couple of remarks

Originally posted by Fiera
Anyways, the point is how could we have resisted the foreign pressure? Even a far more powerful France was beaten by the Santa Alianza... what could have a liberal Spain done against that?

This needs to be explained a bit further, I think, France might have been beaten but look at her then and now

As Alfonsus pointed out, the foreign influence, which began with Napoleón's invasion, ws disgraceful for the developement of our country all along the 19th century.

Same here. Why was it so disgraceful? One might argue that the disgracefulness of the foreign influence had started much before. Sorry to fall very much off topic but the origin of our disgraces could well be traced back to the XVI century, with the 'acquisition' of the Netherlands.

[Fiera]

Re: Re: What if...? (Liberals and conservatives in Spain and Iberoamerica)

Originally posted by Jay Bee
This needs to be explained a bit further, I think, France might have been beaten but look at her then and now

I was referring to the Republican (and Napoleonic thereafter) France. As Germany after both world wars, France had to pass through a "reconstruction/recovery" period. NOt too long or harmful, but enough for England (and eventually to Prussia) to overtake her as the major European power(s).

Why was it so disgraceful?

European powers used their expeditions to Spain to make sure they ruined our economy. Have you ever heard/read that the British troops had orders to destroy our textile industries during the Peninsular War?

One might argue that the disgracefulness of the foreign influence had started much before. Sorry to fall very much off topic but the origin of our disgraces could well be traced back to the XVI century, with the 'acquisition' of the Netherlands.

As you say, that's another history, isn't it? Another thread?

[Dr. Nick]

How does Iberoamerica fit into this discussion?

[Chilean Presidentâ„¢]

Let me tell you guys that Bolivar is a little over rated. Sure he make possible the independence of the north of South America, but that's no reason to forget others greats generals like Bernardo O'Higgins from Chile or José de San Martin from Argentina. Also let me tell you that on the history books always will apear that Bolivar liberate Peru, but the truth is that the Army of the Andes (Chile - Argentina) and the Independence Fleet (the entire chilean navy) were the principal forces in the independence war of Peru. Bolivar just get first to the Pizarro's Palace to proclaim the independence... it's easy to do it when you really haven't fight a single battle in that war.

[Alfonsus72]

Re: What if...? (Liberals and conservatives in Spain and Iberoamerica)

Originally posted by Fiera
The foreign influence, which began with Napoleón's invasion, ws disgraceful for the developement of our country all along the 19th century.

That´s a fact.

Even before the napoleon´s invasion, both England and France forced Portugal and Spain to a foolish war (called the oranges war), that ended quickly cause both spanish and portugueses really didn´t wanted to fight. In Trafalgar, the spanish navy were sacrified by the french admirals.

Napoleon´s invasion was really cruel and terrible to our country. It was much more destructive that our civil war of 1936. More than 600,000 spanish died. Not only our industry were plundered, the french stole pictures and art objects and huge donkey´s caravans take then north to France. As those things they stole in Egypt and other ocuped countries, none was restored. Not only that, they destroyed wathever they couldn´t carry. Last night a hear in the TV news that La Alhambra paintings were been fixed cause they had grafities left by the french soldiers that ocupied it and used it as quarters.
Now are famous the atrocities of the war of Yugoeslavia, specially those about massive killings and rapings. When the french soldiers arrived to Cordoba, they assaulted the houses and raped every woman they found, killing many unarmed civilians. Fortunately, in Bailen they had their punishment. Ironically the battle of Bailen is in the Arc of Thriump of Paris as a battle won by the french army (a tipical case of french "chouvinism").

Even Wellington´s troops, that teorically come to help, as Fiera said, destroyed and plunder many industrial facilities in Spain.

And of course, the Saint Alliance intervention to restore the evil Fernando VII, his absolutism and the Inquisition (don´t forget that european troops came here to restore the Inquisition and bring expropiated lands back to the church), was one of the more infamous episodes in europe history. I´m sure that in the purpose of the Saint Alliance was Spain not to rise again and not to become the politically (in the long term economically) advance country it could have been with our superb Constitution of 1812, the most advanced of the time, combining the liberalism of the american with the solidarity of the french revolutionary one, but without the radicalism of the last one, and the 1st one (except the non-wrote english) stablishing a parlamentary monarchy.

[Dr. Nick]

Chilean President, I concur entirely. Bolivar IS highly overrated. Also one of the things I find strange is that he wanted to do politics so badly, when it was his duty more to fight the Spanish.

[Fiera]

Originally posted by El Awrence
How does Iberoamerica fit into this discussion?

My idea was to discuss as well whether BolÃvar, San MartÃn, etc. led liberal revolutions or just emancipation wars. Sorry, didn't say anything in my first post, but I think that the discussion is developing by itself nicely...

[Jay Bee]

The problem imho is that you guys have worded it the way that it reads as though foreigners where the cause of all disgraces inflicted to Spain. At least that's the way I have understood it. We, poor Spaniards were just living peacefully and got dragged into the horror by those evil Europeans. Don't you think we must have done something wrong to have the leaders we had? England and France did exactly what we would have done given the opportunity.

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
The problem imho is that you guys have worded it the way that it reads as though foreigners where the cause of all disgraces inflicted to Spain. At least that's the way I have understood it. We, poor Spaniards were just living peacefully and got dragged into the horror by those evil Europeans. Don't you think we must have done something wrong to have the leaders we had?

No, no, thet's not what I was trying to say. Of course, our rulers (Carlos IV, Fernando VII and even Godoy) were pathetic, and yet a lot of people supported them. That was our fault.

But once Spain "took the Constitutional way", it was only due to a foreign invasion that the absolutism was restored.

That is a fact, and I felt I needed to point it out, especially since you (and Waku in some degree) seem to to advocate for a sort of "determinism", as in "that's the way we Spanish are", "BolÃvar failed 'cause he was Spanish", etc.

I'm perhaps simplifying your point, but the Spanish in 1812 (and all along the first part of the 19th Century) had a greater liberal mind than what people tend to think today.

Por qué la Constitución de 1812, si no?

[kIndal]

I believe that America had been lost anyways, although, the Ferdinand VII´s despotism hadn´t been re-instaurated, America had got their independence. I believe that not all the South American indepences were equal so we cannot speak about them in the same way, the Mexican one was at first moment an indigenous movement, Cuba´s one was a liberal movement, Peru was stolen by Argentina and Colombia, we have to remember that they don´t want to get the independence from Spain and well...Argentina, Chile, Colombia had their own reason (people from here,oome on!! give your reasons)

I believe that the best way to support America under Spanih ruled had been to make the idea of Floridablanca (I believe) of making a Spanish Commonwealth, Spanish infants and princes will be crowned as South American kings in the same way as Italian States, they became independents but with strong links with Spain, we´d only had Cuba, some island and a pair of important seaports in the continent to support our commerce and economical power. I believe that it had been better for everybody, Spain had been less costs, speacially in defence and could develop more the peninsula thanks to the control of the commerce and the build of industrial goods fro South America (a good way of industrialization).

About NorthAmerica, I don´t believe that it was so important and democratic as they say, just be a revolution as could be any of the European revolution in XVII century. I think is the same as we say that nowdays USA is the "freedom country"...

[Fiera]

To keep her American colonies, Spain would have needed, in the first place, inner political stability. I agree that BolÃvar and the others were, for this very reason, a bunch of "opportunists".

Recordad que los movimientos de emancipación americanos comenzaron como consecuencia del establecimiento de José Bonaparte en la corona española, cuya autoridad las colonias se negaron a reconocer. ¿No es paradójico que la rebelión se materializase una vez expulsados los franceses de España?

(Perdón que haya pasado al español, pero sospecho que ninguno de los no hispanos está siguiendo esta thread).

[kIndal]

(Perdón que haya pasado al español, pero sospecho que ninguno de los no hispanos está siguiendo esta thread).

De putisima madre ahora ya e pueden soltar rollos mas a gustito

[Alfonsus72]

SÃ, ya podemos decir lo que nos parece sin destruir la lengua de Shakespeare

Por resumir el tema y no aburrir más de la cuenta, yo también pienso que la emancipación sudamericana no fue fruto de un ideal liberal ni nada de eso. Fue un grupo de caciques aventureros que quisieron conservar y ampliar sus privilegios cuando vieron que tenÃan delante su oportunidad de oro, pues la penÃnsula, desgajada desde la invasión napoleónica, estaba en plena lucha liberales-absolutista. Ellos parecÃan apoyar a los liberales porque de momento gobernaban los absolutistas, y de hecho su alzamiento provocó el triunfo momentáneo liberal con la sublevación de Riego y su ejército que en vez de embarcar para América restituyó la Constitución de 1812 hasta que tres años después vinieron los europeos y ¡catapúm! una vez más nos hunden en la miseria.

La prueba de que sólo eran unos caciques oportunistas es que conseguida la independencia se desgajaron en tropecientos paÃses, casualmente ninguno de ellos democrático ni liberal, ni siquiera para los estándares de la época.

Que conste que querÃa abreviar, eh.

[Jay Bee]

Sobre lo del determinismo, no me negaras Fiera que entre nacer latino o anglo hay una enorme diferencia. Y no me estoy refiriendo al color del pelo sino a la forma de pensar. Los franceses, nuestros hermanos despues de todo le llaman a lo nuestro la joie de vivre (o algo asi, yo de frances na de na). Los anglos, educados en su esctricto protestantismo no entienden eso. Y asi les va. Y asi nos va.

Y sobre de que los guiris llegaron y estropeatron la Pepa, buenp pues, que os hace pensar que esa vez hubiera sido diferente y los españoles no se la hubieran cargado ellos solitos?