German cravings for Spanish posessions revealed

[Stefan Härtel]

5. Rio Muni.
The Spanish territory of Rio Muni, or Spanish-Guniea, a square-shaped territory of the same size of Sicily is now entirely surrounded by German territory, in exception of the coast in air-line 150 km. Pop. 140 000.

The Colony does not appear to be of much interest for our property, as can be seen by the map; The vegetation is famous, but the coast is swampy, unealthy and accessable only for the industry.

From the "Seydlitz'sche Geographie", Breslau, May 1914.

While this book is my whole pride, I must say I was shocked when reading this. I did not believe that the late imperial society of Germany was actually playing with the thought of ripping away colonial territory from a poor country as Spain. I haven't read much further, but the Portugese-held islands near the coast are described as "wealthier" and "more interesting".
And this from a pre-world war book that was printed for the greater masses.

[Jay Bee]

Interesting reading. Are you sure the intention was to attack? They could have just made a monetary offer just as they did with Marianas archipelago. I know what you're gonna tell me...

[Stefan Härtel]

No, I believe that they could have simply hissed their flag in Bata, just as they had done in Togo and Cameroon. Spain would've been powerless I think.

[Jay Bee]

Purest English style, uh I do not know what kind of obscure interest might have take the Spanish so far down to Guinea (colonial pride and all that stuff aside) so if Germany did that, I do not think many people would have shed tears for it.

[Stefan Härtel]

Except for notre amis francaise, who would've taken that as a reason to declare war on the glorreiche Deutsche Reich...

[Jay Bee]

I would not put my money on that You said before they 'occupied' Cameroon like that. wasn't that a French possession?

[Stefan Härtel]

You said before they 'occupied' Cameroon like that. wasn't that a French
possession?

No. The Germans took the Douala-Yaounde territory from the local tribes. France had been active in this territory, but by 1885 a border was set between French Congo and German Cameroon.
The French would've liked to have had this territory, but by 1911 had to retreat some border territories to Germany as well because they wanted Morocco (in my opinion a very stupid affair).
After WW1, the French took posession of almost the entire former colony, with the exception of some of the easternmost areas which fell to British Nigeria.

[Dr. Nick]

Germany also wanted posession of Morocco.

In any case, it doesn't surprise me at all if Germany had its eyes on other colonies, as by the time Germany entered the scramble for Africa all that was left were some left overs.

[Jay Bee]

[NATIONALISTIC MODE]
he, he, but the jewel of Africa was and still is ours, all ours!
[/NATIONALISTIC MODE]

[REALISTIC MODE]
Until the Scandinavians, Germans and French buy the last bit of terrain left.
[/REALISTIC MODE]

[Stefan Härtel]

Germany also wanted posession of Morocco.

In any case, Germany would not have been as open and aggressive as France (that's all for nationalism from my side now).

In any case, it doesn't surprise me at all if Germany had its eyes on other colonies, as by the time Germany
entered the scramble for Africa all that was left were some left overs.

Well, Germany was quite expansionistic and got some of the good bites before others could grab them. Cameroon and Tansania are quite productive territories you know. Germany however did not rely too much on it's colonies. That was so because at first, the government was not interested in any colonies at all. They had good chances to get a grip on Samoa very early but did not take it.
But in any way, the Germans were some of the most cruel overlords particularily in German-Southwestern Africa (today's Namibia), where they nearly extincted several ethnies, particularly the Herero.

[NATIONALISTIC MODE]
he, he, but the jewel of Africa was and still is ours, all ours!
[/NATIONALISTIC MODE]

[REALISTIC MODE]
Until the Scandinavians, Germans and French buy the last bit of terrain left.
[/REALISTIC MODE]

Ceuta and Melilla

[Jay Bee]

[Dr. Nick]

Yeah, in 1885 a motley bunch of Hereros with sticks beat you back to Walvis Bay.

But in the words of Blackadder, the British Empire covers one fourth of the globe. The German empire consists of a sausage factory in Tanganyka.

[Stefan Härtel]

To see it realistically, the Natives had firearms, heroes and their glorious and praiseworthy will for freedom to lead them.

The Germans had an army and concentration camps

There were countless revolts that led to the extinction and/or ravage of almost all the native people living in SWA.

[lord of the mark]

Re: German cravings for Spanish posessions revealed

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel

5. Rio Muni.
The Spanish territory of Rio Muni, or Spanish-Guniea, a square-shaped territory of the same size of Sicily is now entirely surrounded by German territory, in exception of the coast in air-line 150 km. Pop. 140 000.

The Colony does not appear to be of much interest for our property, as can be seen by the map; The vegetation is famous, but the coast is swampy, unealthy and accessable only for the industry.

From the "Seydlitz'sche Geographie", Breslau, May 1914.

While this book is my whole pride, I must say I was shocked when reading this. I did not believe that the late imperial society of Germany was actually playing with the thought of ripping away colonial territory from a poor country as Spain. I haven't read much further, but the Portugese-held islands near the coast are described as "wealthier" and "more interesting".
And this from a pre-world war book that was printed for the greater masses.

My understanding is that Portugal was near bankruptcy in that period, (dont know about Spain) and that the idea was for Germany to buy the Portugese colonies, with Britain's consent. Nothing ever came of this, IIUC, due to continued naval race between Britain and Germany, and Morocco crisis.

My understanding is that Imperial Germany had quite a few "right wing" nationalists who wanted major imperial expansion, etc in the navy league, etc. Frequently they were much more jingoist than the position of the Imperial government. My priniciple source for ideological conflict in late imperial Germany is "Freud, the Jews, and other Germans" by Peter Gay. (though it does not focus on high politics, as you can tell from the title - its nonethelss excellent) My understanding is that there has been considerable revisionism in the US history profession lately as regards the role of the navy league, pro-colonialist lobbies etc. Key work is Calleo "The German Problem Reconsidered" which IIUC argues that jingoism was less important than realistic trade problems faced by German industry. A deviation from traditional American views which see illiberalism in Germany as key problem, focuses on need for liberal Germany, and fears illiberal German elements from right or left (such as Greens) Calleo argues that liberal, capitalist society created international structural problems independent of illiberal ideologies.


LOTM

[Scott F]

Hmmm. A discussion of German imperial ambitions in a Spanish Civilization forum... what are the chances of that?

I am not really surprised that the Germans discussed schemes to get at nearly everyone's colonies. Germans are (and this is a sad generalization) a self-destructively thorough and meticulous people. Even in 1914 the German General Staff had numerous war plans in existance for war with all of its neighbors, even the Austrians. I even have a map in one of my historical atlases showing plans of expansion for European colonial empires in Africa. There are three German arrows starting in Cameroon, Southwest Africa, and East Africa. They all converge in the middle of the Belgian Congo. French plans are not all that different. British plans involve seizing land from Portugal, Germany, and France.

Practically every nation had nationalist leagues which painstakingly plotted out and discussed schemes about how the government could grab colonies from other nations, by legitimate means or by more underhanded policies. The only thing which propped up colonial empires like that of the Portuguese and the Spanish came from the simple fact that the main and assertive colonial powers could not agree on who should get what. They could only agree that they didn't want anyone else to have the land if they couldn't.

Even the Bulow government would not have been so bold as to seize colonial land from another European power outright. At the very least there would have been a "generous offer to take it off their hands" or something along those lines, with the generous offer backed up by the implicit threat that they would take it anyway. Such bullying could only go so far, as Spain, Portugal, or any other pressured nation would merely turn to the other two main colonial powers for support, effectively playing the three off of each other for continued survival.

And certainly, the Germans were not exactly pleasant colonial masters. But then which, if any, Europeans were? Even the Americans were busy for over a decade brutally crushing a revolt in the Philippines after they took it from Spain. The German colonial experience with the native populations is certainly a more pleasant one than, say, the Japanese colonial experience in Asia, the Leopoldian/Belgian experience in the Congo, or the British oppression of the Boers. The Germans could certainly exact far greater loyalty from their native populations, particularly in Ostafrika than could be found practically anywhere else, and the revolt against German rule in the 1890s there was not particularly a pleasant event (both for the natives, the colonists, and for German politicians at home).

It is a testament to the political and diplomatic abilities of Bismarck that for years he expressed no interest at all in colonial possessions, only to decide (for domestic political reasons) suddenly to move to aquire colonial possessions and within a matter of a year or two, he carved out what was then the third or fourth largest colonial empire in the world. He achieved in less than two years what it took the British and French decades to attain. And through it all, Bismarck retained his view of the uselessness of colonies.

Germany's problems after Bismarck aren't so much the problems of an "illiberal" system, but the precise nature of the illiberal system coupled with the fact that it was operated by people who were monumentally unskilled to do so who were under the pressure of powerful commercial interests. Add to this the generally jingoist and nationalist fervor of the period in all nations which creates a situation in which governments cannot back down without losing face. This is doubly worrisome for the German government, which embarks on an ambitious foreign policy for what are truly jingoist reasons (to stem the rise of the Social Democratic Party and the possible creation of hostile majorities in the Reichstag). The German government cannot back down on the international scene without losing face and support at home (thus giving ammunition to those who oppose the government like the socialists). Certainly, the powerful commercial interests like the agrarian Junkers and the industrial elites favored this foreign policy. Trade markets were really just as necessary to these interests as the defense contracts to construct a large and powerful battle fleet.