A profile for the unofficial spanish civ

[Alfonsus72]

Of course, the Saint Alliance sent the 100,000 sons of Sant Louis to brought back absolutism to Spain, so it´s funny when someone from england or france says that were an underdeveloped country, cause our underdevelop came many times from the outside. If they had let us alone... we should have had the most advance political system of the time except the USA´s one.

What I defend is that Bolivar´s movement was not liberal, or if it was at the begining they had a complete failure. You only has to see the kind of goverments they had after independence and the kind of countries they had now, specially compared with their northern mates (USA and Canada).


Returning to the topic, here is a list of the special units ideas we´ve had:

TERCIO: A mix of pikemen an harquebussiers, with the firepower of an early musketeer unit and special bonus against cavalry attacks.

SPANISH GALLEON: High cargo capacity + defensive bonus.

GUERRILLERO or BANDOLERO: Ignores ZOC, all as road, low building cost?, no manteinance?.

SPANISH CARAVEL: +1 movement.

ALMOGAVERS: middle-age infantry unit with dissembark capability.

CONQUISTADORES: An explorer unit with some combat capability, and x2 versus ancient age units.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Alfonsus72
What I defend is that Bolivar´s movement was not liberal, or if it was at the begining they had a complete failure.

Agree! without the "if", I think it was (at the begining)

[Alfonsus72]

Originally posted by Waku

is there still slavery in USA?
USA is not the reachest country because of its revolution

In Spain we don´t apreciate the importance of american revolution (we don´t even call it a revolution). All the principles and wonders we give to the French Revolution was in the american one more than 10 years before.

They were liberal movements, creoles were 2nd class spanish, and they kept for years claming for the same rights than the peninsular spanish had.

As far as I know, liberal doesn´t mean to take off a master to put a new one. I guess Bolivar never said a word about human rights, equality, divisions of power (why divide it if all could be for him?), and if it said it, then he was a lyer, cause he never tried to put that ideals in their rule. His most famous speach was that saying "spanish.. prepare to die" (and in fact he did, including 4,000 prisioners and civilians from the peninsula)

Washington doesn't differ from what you've just said about Bol/SM/etc
They didn't became underdevelopped because of them

As far as I know, Washington didn´t became "procer (or protector or dictator) of The 13 Colonies", they did elections, and Washington itself retired to his modest residence in Virginia.

Exactly the same happened in N/America

I agree with you here.

According to this Franco is also a traitor

You said it. If he did a word and he broke it, he was a traitor to his word.

[Jay Bee]

....so, what happened to that thread you were going to open, Fiera?

[Waku]

The other thing I was pointing at was another "what if":

What if the Spanish constitution of 1812 hadn't been abolished? would we be talking now about a Bolivar?

[Alfonsus72]

That would be nice! Probably Bolivar haven´t had his chance in that case, but other oportunist would have appear later. Probably the creoles could have proclamed independence in the name of Fernando VII and the holy inquisition, any cause is good when what you want is power.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Alfonsus72
Probably Bolivar haven´t had his chance in that case

Spot on!

Originally posted by Alfonsus72
Probably the creoles could have proclamed independence in the name of Fernando VII and the holy inquisition, any cause is good when what you want is power.

successfully? I doubt it

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
....so, what happened to that thread you were going to open, Fiera?

Well, I leave just for a couple of hours and...

Anyways, I just wanted to open a thread with the word POLITICS at the title.

[alf]

Los almogávares eran mucho... esa infantería era la mejor de esa época, dieron caña luchando en proporción 1 a 10 a los turcos... yo creo que merecen mas potencia de ataque que ninguno otro.. su movilidad era admirable, se desplazaban a marchas forzadas y llegaban en mucho menos tiempo que cualquier otra infantería, no necesitaban intendencia, en defensa no les gustaba quedarse detrás de las murallas así que no esperaban ataques ajenos... "desperta ferro".
Como lider me gusta Fernando el Católico, que creo ha sido el mejor rey que hemos tenido... Felipe II me parece un burócrata con enfermizo apego religioso que nos desangró económica y militarmente. Carlos III también fue un buen rey, menos belicoso pero muy buen organizador y gestor.
En la armada no sé está incluido Alvaro de Bazán, ese que en Lepanto salvó los muebles y si no muere creo que la armada invencible hubiera sido eso, invencible.

[Alfonsus72]

Ummm, ¿se admiten reyes como líderes?. En ese caso yo propondría también a Jaime I.

De acuerdo con lo de Alvaro de Bazán, puse a Juan de Austria (supongo que formaban equipo) por Lepanto, pero supongo que el que hizo el trabajo duro fué Don Alvaro.

Carlos III hizo pocas guerras pero las hizo bien. De su época he incluido a Bernardo Gálvez, que ayudó a la independencia americana conquistando Móbile y Pensacola a los ingleses.

[alf]

Adriano y Trajano aunque fueran de ascendencia romana creo que eran nacidos en Hispania, así que puede ser que también los pongas en tu mente.

[Jay Bee]

No recuerdo si tenias a Viriato, que por cierto, contrariamente a la creencia popular, era extremeño no potugués

[Waku]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
No recuerdo si tenias a Viriato, que por cierto, contrariamente a la creencia popular, era extremeño no potugués

Eso cuando menos es todavía incierto, si mi memoria no me falla hay un escrito por ahí que dice que nació en la Lusitania cercana al mar (=Portugal) Voy a buscarlo.

[Jay Bee]

Estaba bromeando Waku. Pero en cualquier caso, Extremadura esta cerca del mar y es parte de la Lusitania prerromana

[Alfonsus72]

CURRENT STATUS OF THE UNOFICIAL SPANISH CIV PROPORSALS:

CARACTER:
Expansionist
Religious

LEADERS:
Male: Philip II. Other options: Charles I, Charles III, Fernando of Aragon.
Female: Elizabeth I.

GENERALS:
Ancient: Viriato, Trajano, Adriano.
Middle: The Cid, Jaime I, Gonzalo Fernandez (Great Captain), Hernan Cortés, Francisco Pizarro, Alejandro Farnesio, Spinola, Duque de Alba.
Modern: Gálvez (Governor of spanish Lousiana), Castaños, Valeriano Weyler.

Navy: Juan de Austria, Alvaro de Bazán, Blas de Lezo, Churruca, Pascual Cervera.

SPECIAL UNITS:

TERCIO: A mix of pikemen an harquebussiers, with the firepower of an early musketeer unit and special bonus against cavalry attacks.

SPANISH GALLEON: High cargo capacity + defensive bonus.

GUERRILLERO or BANDOLERO: Ignores ZOC, all as road, low building cost?, no manteinance?.

SPANISH CARAVEL: +1 movement.

ALMOGAVERS: middle-age infantry unit with dissembark capability, and increased attack.

CONQUISTADORES: An explorer unit with some combat capability, and x2 versus ancient age units.


As far as I know, there can be only 1 leader, 1 special unit and 4 great leaders (generals). That´s my vote:

LEADER: Philip II.

GREAT LEADERS: Viriato, Great Captain, Farnese, Weyler.

SPECIAL UNIT: Conquistadores.... or Galleon. Not sure.