No Spanish civ in civ3

[Jay Bee]

Marquis, thanks for your input. You can't imagine how relieving is for me to read opinions like yours. Where do you post from? Need to know this in order to include to include your name in the Apolyton Hispanica Location List You deserve to be there at least as much as the most desrving one.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

JayBee, I live in Land o' Lakes! That's "Minnesota" in Ojibwe. If you need a spot for the map, Minneapolis is a few pixels southwest of the westernmost extent of Lago Superior. I am honored to be included on the list.

By the way, I enjoy playing your scenarios very much.

[Stefan Härtel]

Not adding the Spanish is a totally ridiculous and unproffessional decision. If anybody ever thought about the impact each Civilization had on world history, they'd come to surprising conclusions. The Babylonian civilization has been independent for just barely two centuries until it was surpressed by other regional powers. Not even the empire of Nebuchadnezzar should be called "Babylonian" for they were Chaldaeans, their empire was based only in Babylon (The Persians had their politcal centre in Elam but were no Elamites). By the time (just as an example) the Persians took Babylon nobody remembered Hammurabi, who is so praised on the Civ3 homepage. The strengthe of Babylon has passed, the great administration and code of laws were lost until they were rediscovered three millenia after they were made.
Spain on the other hand is in my opinion one of the most influental powers of all times. In contrary to [B]every[/I] other civilization, perhaps except for the Romans, their achievements have been of so vital importance to the structurization of the earth that you can find a map of their empire in even the most nationalistic german history book. I mean it. One atlas of mine is entitled "30 maps to German history", printed in 1913, and although it focusses on German history, the Spanish are praised and a number of pages is dedicated entirely to them.

Now this text may not change anything, but it is my personal example of why the Spaniards have got to be included in such a game.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
The Iroquois are in to be politically correct, no doubt. Sure they pretty much taught the Americans how to:

• Farm in the americas
• go anywhere not on the coast
• set up a constitutional government

Even so, they paled in historical importance and advancement to the Maya or Inca. Gothmog, there were far more than 25000 Iroquois, easily ten times that number after most were wiped out by epidemics.

My source for Iroquois population comes from the Osprey publication "American Woodland Indians". It refers only to the Six Nations which were located in upper New York State. Now the Iroquois Empire did extend beyond that area, so if you want to count it that way, your number is probably correct as well.

I agree that the Iroquois are probably "in" because of political correctness. Now that I think of it, yhe Spanish are probably "out" because of political correctness. After all they were the first to go over to the "New World", (another politically incorrect term) and ruin everything.

[Waku]

THANX!

He, he it's quite funny to notice how paranoid about Spain still are some people (it's remarkable to see they are mainly dutch/brits/yanks, old spanish enemies), the best argument to demonstrate that Spain shoud have been in BTW.
There's nothing to fear from Spain now, we're only a second row country -we keep on going to work on a donkey-)
The only purpose of this threads was to make as much noise as possible, we couldn't do it without your unvaluable help. THANK YOU

[Jay Bee]

Waku,

Well, I would not generalize that much. The vast majority of people agree with us in that this is a gross mistake. A very significant percentage or those are either Americans or English. That doesn't surprise me in the least. What happens also is that, obviously, they do not feel about this as strongly as we do.

About the paranoids, they are only a little bunch of nerds. Three or four at most. Probably very young and as such, daring, agressive, and generally ignorant. In other words, most of the time they do not know what they're talking about and are only looking for notoriety. The best way to obtain notoriety on an internet forum is, we all know it, to get into flame wars.

How old can you guess our friend Bananaramah is? Such an obsession, such an anger are very difficult to explain in a mentally-stable fully grown-up. She's probably alienated with some pamphlet she's recently read about how cruel the Duke of Alba was up there and this is the result. As for the other, he's just trolling. His profile says he's 18. I would not be surprised if he's even less than that. But I particularly find this one very funny. He's so obvious... The last one who showed up is 12.... Are we gonna waste more time with that bunch of nerds? Not me. After posting those Arabic sentences that I have been having on the top of my head for several days, I am definitely done with this.

to your Australian links. Let's see what is the new troll this guy comes up with now.


Gothmog

I admit I had given a thought to that too. But discarded it. I just refuse to admit that somebody could be so mentally retarded. Until strong evidence shows otherwise, I will stick to the theory that marketing reasons demanded it. I am a good-hearted man, you see

[Gothmog]

Jay Bee
I agree that to say Spain was excluded by Firaxis for political incorrectitude is a stretch. I was only half serious. Lacking any other coherent explanation, I have to consider the PC theory. The marketing theory makes no sense to me.

[Jay Bee]

Why not?

PS. I see you've changed your sig. I loved the old one so much

[Chris 62]

I would like to thank all the anglo bashers, it really was fun being insulted repeatedly. (My mother was born in Britain, remember?)

I was also edjucated in the US.

Thanks for the sterotypes.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Chris 62
I would like to thank all the anglo bashers, it really was fun being insulted repeatedly. (My mother was born in Britain, remember?)
I was also edjucated in the US.
Thanks for the sterotypes.

I was very saddened to read this. Please accept my apologies on behalf of those who hurt you.

I hope you did not misunderstand the comments I made above about Americans and British.

Originally posted by Jay Bee
The vast majority of people agree with us in that this is a gross mistake. A very significant percentage or those are either Americans or English. That doesn't surprise me in the least.

I guess you did not, but just in case, let me make absolutely clear that these sentences meant to praise the positive attitude of most US and English posters with regards to this stupid flame war that a few nerds orchestrated.

I live in America and thus I got to know the American way of thinking quite well, and that's why I know that, contray to what some people may think, the American is neither ignorant not arrogant. Quite the contrary. About the English, well, they aren't much different from the Spaniards. In my opinion they are actually lookalikes in so many things. However, unlike us, The English people are generally very understanding. The behavior of American and English posters in this silly matter only confirms what I already knew. There are bad apples everywhere. We all have to suffer from these.

But this is what happens when people start posting trash instead of (a) making a friendly approach or (b) posting nothing at all. At least 90% of the Anglo bashing should be credited to the arrogance of an Englishman (no need to give his name). People only counterattacked.

As for the US bashing, well, that seems to be the national sport of more than a half of the world. What can you do? It's just an obvious sign of a big inferiority complex. Ignore it or take it as a joke.

[Stefan Härtel]

Hey Chris, welcome to the club
As a German I've had to listen to quite a few insults during my short life now.
The important thing is that you just ignore this. They're a couple of uneducated idiots who don't know how to behave properly.

[St Leo]

Civilization is not, has never been, and never will be a historically accurate game. My needs for historical accuracy will be satisfied by Europa Universalis 2 (Q4 2001) that includes a world-wide selection of civs (including Portugal, Spain, Aragon, Catalonia, Navarre, and Al-Andalus) and very flexible customization.

Civ3's exclusion of the Spanish is lamentable but logical. They are limited to a palette of sixteen civilizations by design (I'm in the "64+ civs, animation be damned" camp).
-England and France are widely known; so is Germany.
-Greeks and Romans are very famous and also make it in.
-Russians are a questionable choice - Spain was certainly more important overall - but the Cold War is still a fresh memory and they make it.
-So far 5 civs have been spent filling a puny peninsula of Asia, making the Play on Earth option rather boring.
-Americans are a spiritual successor of the British, but Firaxis has to contend with the jingoistic multitudes and it gets in.
-Aztecs are widely known; Mayae and Incae are not. Guess who makes it in.
-Iroquois are forced in to fill up America (I would have preferred more SE Asian civs).
-Chinese, Japanese, and the generalized Indians get in to fill up the largest continent.
-Persians and Babylonians get the Middle East (Hittites would have been a nice third).
-Africa's empty, so Zulus (What about Mali, Songhai, Ghana, and Abyssinia?) are stuck in.
-Thus, all sixteen slots have been used up.

P.S. IMHO, Los Angeles as capital of a Latino empire is worse than nothing at all. It's akin to having Halifax as capital of a Celtic empire.

[Stefan Härtel]

Forget it. I take it back.

[Waku]

Originally posted by St Leo
-England and France are widely known; so is Germany.
-Greeks and Romans are very famous and also make it in.
-Americans are a spiritual successor of the British, but Firaxis has to contend with the jingoistic multitudes and it gets in.
-Aztecs are widely known;

I'd like to insist on the teletubbies option.

[St Leo]

I'd like to insist on the teletubbies option.

Unfortunately, all rights to the teletubbies are owned by someone and Firaxis can't afford to pay the licensing fees.