Turkish thread (from Andalusia sescession one)

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-08-2001 01:37 PM (by the way, why is Sweden not a member of the EEC?)

Sweden is a member of the European Union.
Could you define the EEC I thought it ceased to exist when EU was formed what I do know is that all the stuff you have said up untill now has been about the EU (Turkey, etc).
I might be way of here
In that case I would like to apologize what I have said was about the European Union, I know some people still refer to the EU as the EEC but your last post made me a bit unsure.

[Masis]

Turkeys real reason for being turned down as a member of the EEC(though it has a Customs Union) is real-politik, the economy. Currently 2,000,000 Turkish Lira=£1 English Pound.
It can not solely be due to Human Rights abuses as Norway and other
Scandinavian countries have blood on their hands too-The Vikings (famous Viking torture 'the blood eagle' in which a person was tied to a stake, had their chest slit open and the ribs pulled apart).
Spain, alas, has also it's fair share of Human Rights abuses-The
Inquisition + The conquest of the Americas leading to the enslavement of Thousands of Native Americans and the destruction of the MesoAmerican socieities.

Apologies to Kindal and Henrik if by mentioning the Human Rights abuses of the Spaniards and Scandinavians I have touched a National Nerve within them.
Just because these atrocities happened in the so called past does not excuse the descendants to avoid admiting the Guilt of the Nation.
That is merely copying the stance of the Turkish government which wishes to blame the Ottomans for past atrocities, though the 'greatest' level of atrocites was committed by the Young Turk movement-the Kemalist nation of modern Turkey being it's heir.
I do not look passively at these atrocties as being a part of life, I look at them as a syndrome of the illness of Humanity.
Merely by stating the atrocities of your nations, I follow the saying of Our Lord Jesus Christ "You can not remove the piece of grit from your brother's eye when you have a log covering your eyes, first remove the
log and then remove the grit from your brothers eyes".
This means that to criticise a fault of another is pointless when one has many fault to deal with first.
Have the now 'Christian' nations payed compensation to the few remaining minorites who have suffered under their rule?
It is worth noting that the Christian minorites under Muslim rule regulate their lives with the Christian Church, where as Christians living freely are unlikely to be as loyal to their Church, a recent visit to the
highlands of Scotland were my Grandmother lives, going to the Protestant Church on a Sunday only to fine me and a few elderly people making up the total congregation.
On visiting my Grandmother in Istanbul last year, going to the Armenian church on a Sunday to find it packed out, with many people not getting seats, I gave mine to an elderly lady.
So the conclusion is that generally it is viewed that Turkey is a barbaric heathen nation of no cultural value and that north European nations represent the pinicle of civilisation.
In reality it is the exact oposite when wieghing the historical level of civilisation with a time span that the former Roman Empire of Constantinople that lasted for over 1,000 years continuing a further 1,000 years of Roman civilisation in itself from its founding in 753 BC.
Can any north European nation claim such an organised society at that period of time?
Turkey is the result of the battle of Manazgert (which was a failure for the Romans due to treachery not amateurism),the 4th crusade and subsequent western antagonism towards the Orthodox nations of the Balkans.
The Turks acted as a blanket, a very thin military one covering an ancient legacy of civilisation which is why few cities in Turkey today are of Turkish origin.
Ankara was Ankyra
Istanbul was Istin Polin (Into the City), New Rome-Constantinopolis
Izmit was Istin Media, Nikomedia
Iznik was Istin Nikia, Nikia
Silivri was Selemvria
Elazig was Ellasgert ('Greek City' in Armenian)
Edirne was Adriana, Adrianopolis
Sivas was Sevastia
Kaisari was Kaisaria (Caesaria), Mazaca
Malatya was Meletia, Meletene
Izmir was Istin Smyrna, Smyrna
Antalya was Attalia
Tarsos was Tarsos
Antakya was Antiokia
Erzerum was Ardzen Er Rum (Ardzen of the Romans), Theodosiopolis, Karin
Trabzon was Trabzond, Trapesos
Isparta was Istin Parisa, Parisos
Konya was Ikonia
Erigli was Eraklia, Heraklia
Diyarbakir was Diyar Bakir (Place of Copper), Amida
Niksar was Nea Kaisaria
Amasya was Amassea
Samsun was Istin Amisson (Amazon), Amissos
Gelibolu was Gallipoli
Efes was Ephesos
Edremit was Adrametion
Van was Van, Tushpa
Erzincan was Sinerva
Kars was Kars
Artvin was Artvin
Manazgert was Manzikert
Urfa was Urfa, Edessa
Harran was Harran, Carrhae
Iskedurun was Alexanderon, Alexandtretta
Tiribolu was Tripoli
Giresun was Girison
Trua was Troy, Ilium
Marash was Kermarisia, Germanicea
Yozgat was Ioskatia
Uskutar was Skutari, Chrysopolis
Marmara was Marmara (marble sea)

Again, many Turkish place names translate into their exact Roman origin, for example Silivri Kapi(Gate) on the Theodosian walls was historically called The Gate of Selemvria, a distirct today called Bakir Koy (Copper
District) was called Copper District during the Roman Empire.
Even the area my Grandmother lives is still locally called Samatya, as it was during the Roman Empire.

So the blanket of Turkish nationalism is thin indeed which explains why their are no books to be found in Turkey explaining the cultural legacy of Turkey for Turks to read, all books being State Censored.

Take a look at the below picture, on the your left is the Preseident of Mongolia, on your right is the (ex) President of Turkey Suleiman Demirel.


Notice that for a so-called Turkic person, Demirel looks more Mediterranean, unlike his counterpart the President of Mongolia.
So, who are the people of Modern Turkey?
I will let you ponder on that question...


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MRP

[Henrik]

Now why would you repost all that

[St Leo]

The island of Cuba is very seperate from the north American continent, the gulf of Mexico being created by an ancient Asteriod impact that is sited as being the case of the extinction of the Dinosaurs, the crater was deep, leaving a few shattered ridges of islands that had formerly been a part of the north American continent.

Uh, you are confused. The impact is quite a bit smaller than that, half of it is on the northern tip of Yucatan, and the main evidence for its existence are the circular magnetic patterns in the ground.

It can not solely be due to Human Rights abuses as Norway and other
Scandinavian countries have blood on their hands too-The Vikings (famous Viking torture 'the blood eagle' in which a person was tied to a stake, had their chest slit open and the ribs pulled apart).

What century was that? "Human Rights abuses" refers to the less than humane judicial system and the modern-day treatment of Kurds.

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Leons Petrazickis (St. Leo)
http://aventine.cf-developer.net/minizigg/
petrazi@sprint.ca
[This message has been edited by St Leo (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Masis]

quote: Originally posted by St Leo on 05-15-2001 04:25 PM It can not solely be due to Human Rights abuses as Norway and other Scandinavian countries have blood on their hands too-The Vikings (famous Viking torture 'the blood eagle' in which a person was tied to a stake, had their chest slit open and the ribs pulled apart). What century was that? "Human Rights abuses" refers to the less than human judicial system and the modern-day treatment of Kurds.

Ala, you too are mimicking the Turkish Governments stance on the Armenian Genocide-just because it happened 86 years ago, that makes it a 'past' subject not worthy of being placed within a Human Rights abuse case.
It does not matter what century a Human rights abuse happens, it happened and is documented and the country's descendants can not ignore them.
You also forgot to mention the Turkish governments abuse of its own citizens, and withholding the right for minorities to maintain their buildings such as schools and hospitals, not to mention also the fact that mainstream Islam cannot express itself properly due to it being looked at as contradictory to the doctrine of Mustapha Kemal.


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MRP

[St Leo]

Ala, you too are mimicking the Turkish Governments stance on the Armenian Genocide-just because it happened 86 years ago, that makes it a 'past' subject not worthy of being placed within a Human Rights abuse case.

It is a human rights abuse case, but it is not relevant to the matter at hand. As far as I know, Armenians are not being held in Turkish Concentration camps right now. Therefore, it cannot be used to justify excluding Turkey from the EU.

It does not matter what century a Human rights abuse happens, it happened and is documented and the country's descendants can not ignore them.

Bloody hell? Do I really have to agonize over the bones of slaughtered Neanderthals scattered all over Europe just because one of my ancestors might have been involved? I have nothing against not ignoring it, but people should not expect me to give a darn. Time heals all wounds.

You also forgot to mention the Turkish governments abuse of its own citizens, and withholding the right for minorities to maintain their buildings such as schools and hospitals, not to mention also the fact that mainstream Islam cannot express itself properly due to it being looked at as contradictory to the doctrine of Mustapha Kemal.

I make no claim to omniscience.

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Leons Petrazickis (St. Leo)
http://aventine.cf-developer.net/minizigg/
petrazi@sprint.ca

[Masis]

"It is a human rights abuse case, but it is not relevant to the matter at hand. As far as I know, Armenians are not being held in Turkish Concentration camps right now. Therefore, it cannot be used to justify excluding Turkey from the EU."

"As far as I know..." Yes, you do not know- but in fact Armenians are being held in concentration camps, my uncle was! And they live in constant fear of government action.

"Bloody hell? Do I really have to agonize over the bones of slaughtered Neanderthals scattered all over Europe just because one of my ancestors might have been involved? I have nothing against not ignoring it, but people should not expect me to give a darn. Time heals all wounds."

"Bloody hell?" Temper temper, that will not win an argument I hear swearing all day where I am so it will not affect me one iota.
"Time heals all wounds" Tell that to a Jew on the subject of the Holocaust.
As to the fate of the so called Neanderthals (an ironic word meaning New Man, that it is meant to reffer to an apparently degenerated humaniod), St. Leo, you don't need to go back 100,000 years to find if one of your ancestors was involved in a Neanderthal Murder Case, if they were Germanic-in particular Vikings, the likely hood of one of them killing their own neighbour is high indeed-but then that is ok-they were nice White Anglo-Saxon Europeans whereas the Turks are apparently nasty degenerate sub-humans with no soul and should be stigmatized for the way they are trying to manage a political situation that was created by the western 'powers' in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Now, all that political wrangling aside...

Age of Alexius version1 is now available at The European Civilisation II site



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MRP

[Masis]

UPDATED SCENARIOS

The Age of Arturius and the Age of Heraklius scenarios have been updated with new graphics and text corrections-download from The European Civilization II Site

An updated version of The Age of Justinian scenario is to follow forthwith...WITH WORKING EVENTS!

[Masis]

Age of Justinian-RELEASED

The Age of Justinian scenario has been released-expect revolts, plague and miltary campaigns not to mention great creations like Santa (Haghia) Sophia...
At The European Civilization II Web Site
Now to get ot work redesigning The Age of Constantine...