Turkish thread (from Andalusia sescession one)

[kIndal]

Too, I think that is better speak about this subject in a new thread

quote: Sorry, but I would like to laugh at the idea that Iceland, Ireland and Britain are geographically part of Europe (which they are not-nitice the presence of seas seperating them from the continent) but I have to be serious on this matter.

Sorry if it offends you, but I think that is a nosense say that these three islands aren´t European, so it means that no islands are part of a continent, Madagascar aren´t African, Cuba aren´t American or Japan aren´t Asian. So each island is a diferent continent????

quote: I think the problem is that nobody has the perfect definition of what Europe is. During a stage in Switzerland as an Erasmus student one time a French one said me: Well if you are Spanish you are not European, you are African because Europe ends in the Pyrinees mountains. In fact I think he was partially right, after all historically, culturally and geographically I am nearest to Maroc than for example Sweden or Poland.

About French, it is a typical phrase of them but something like when we call them "gabachos" or "son como los moros" it is only a way to insult us. I am not very sure about the nearer of Morroco to Spain they have a culture completly diferent to us and historically, well, we have been in war against Sweden and allied of Poland so.... geographical could be, but our countries are nearer to Polish economics than to Morroco ones.

quote: I will believe more in a Mediteranean Union (of course south Mediterranean countries must change a lot politically) than in the EC[quote] could be a very interesting idea, but you have to think that we are the poor countries in EC so do you think that Spain,, Italy or Greece can really make stronger the Economy of other countries in south mediterranean coast?, too you have to think that West Mediterranean Sea there are a lot of armed conflicts as Israel-Palestine,Argelian fundamentalism or Cyprus soveraignity and pair more, so as somebody has said, a union cannot have members in war between theselves. [quote]Certainly, I as an Armenian condem the Turkish government's behaviour towards us and also towards its own Muslim citizens, but other nations too have to face War Crimes and Human Rights abuses, so the notion that Turkey is prohibited from jioning the EEC due to such notions falls flat when you realise what other 'Developed' nation have done to become 'Developed'.

But we aren´t speaking about the abuses of hundred of years in the past (you have forgotten the atrocities of Janissaries in Balkans and nobody said that Turkey must to pay for them), we are speaking about actual problems.

[Henrik]

In case anyone missed my last post http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum49/H...6-2.html?47#47

[Masis]

quote: Originally posted by kIndal on 05-07-2001 03:33 AM Too, I think that is better speak about this subject in a new thread But we aren´t speaking about the abuses of hundred of years in the past (you have forgotten the atrocities of Janissaries in Balkans and nobody said that Turkey must to pay for them), we are speaking about actual problems.

[quote]Originally posted by Masis on 05-06-2001 10:32 PM
Turkeys real reason for being turned down as a member of the EEC
(though it has a Customs Union) is real-politik, the economy.
Currently 2,000,000 Turkish Lira=£1 English Pound.
It can not solely be due to Human Rights abuses as Norway and other
Scandinavian countries have blood on their hands too-The Vikings (famous Viking torture 'the blood eagle' in which a person was tied to
a stake, had their chest slit open and the ribs pulled apart).
Spain, alas, has also it's fair share of Human Rights abuses-The
Inquisition + The conquest of the Americas leading to the
enslavement of Thousands of Native Americans and the destruction of
the MesoAmerican socieities.

[/qoute]


Apologies to Kindal and Henrik if by mentioning the Human Rights abuses of the Spaniards and Scandinavians I have touched a National Nerve within them.
Just because these atrocities happened in the so called past does not excuse the descendants to avoid admiting the Guilt of the Nation.
That is merely copying the stance of the Turkish government which wishes to blame the Ottomans for past atrocities, though the 'greatest' level of atrocites was committed by the Young Turk movement-the Kemalist nation of modern Turkey being it's heir.
I do not look passively at these atrocties as being a part of life, I look at them as a syndrome of the illness of Humanity.
Merely by stating the atrocities of your nations, I follow the saying of Our Lord Jesus Christ "You can not remove the piece of grit from your brother's eye when you have a log covering your eyes, first remove the log and then remove the grit from your brothers eyes".
This means that to criticise a fault of another is pointless when one has many fault to deal with first.
Have the now 'Christian' nations payed compensation to the few remaining minorites who have suffered under their rule?
It is worth noting that the Christian minorites under Muslim rule regulate their lives with the Christian Church, where as Christians living freely are unlikely to be as loyal to their Church, a recent visit to the highlands of Scotland were my Grandmother lives, going to the Protestant Church on a Sunday only to fine me and a few elderly people making up the total congregation.
On visiting my Grandmother in Istanbul last year, going to the Armenian church on a Sunday to find it packed out, with many people not getting seats, I gave mine to an elderly lady.
So the conclusion is that generally it is viewed that Turkey is a barbaric heathen nation of no cultural value and that north European nations represent the pinicle of civilisation.
In reality it is the exact oposite when wieghing the historical level of civilisation with a time span that the former Roman Empire of Constantinople that lasted for over 1,000 years continuing a further 1,000 years of Roman civilisation in itself from its founding in 753 BC.
Can any north European nation claim such an organised society at that period of time?
Turkey is the result of the battle of Manazgert (which was a failure for the Romans due to treachery not amateurism),the 4th crusade and subsequent western antagonism towards the Orthodox nations of the Balkans.
The Turks acted as a blanket, a very thin military one covering an ancient legacy of civilisation which is why few cities in Turkey today are of Turkish origin.
Ankara was Ankyra
Istanbul was Istin Polin (Into the City), New Rome-Constantinopolis
Izmit was Istin Media, Nikomedia
Iznik was Istin Nikia, Nikia
Silivri was Selemvria
Edirne was Adriana, Adrianopolis
Sivas was Sevastia
Kaisari was Kaisaria, Mazaca
Malatya was Meletia, Meletene
Izmir was Istin Smyrna, Smyrna
Antalya was Attalia
Tarsos was Tarsos
Antakya was Antiokia
Erzerum was Ardzen Er Rum (Ardzen of the Romans), Theodosiopolis, Karin
Trabzon was Trabzond, Trapesos
Konya was Ikonia
Erigli was Eraklia, Heraklia
Diyarbakir was Diyar Bakir (Place of Copper), Amida
Niksar was Nea Kaisaria
Amasya was Amassea
Gelibolu was Gallipoli
Efes was Ephesos
Edremit was Adrametion
Van was Van, Tushpa
Erzincan was Sinerva
Kars was Kars
Artvin was Artvin
Manazgert was Manzikert

Many Turkish place names translate into their exact Roman origin, for example Silivri Kapi(Gate) on the Theodosian walls was historically called The Gate of Selemvria, a distirct today called Bakir Koy (Copper District) was called Copper District during the Roman Empire.
Even the area my Grandmother lives is still locally called Samatya, as it was during the Roman Empire.

So the blanket of Turkish nationalism is thin indeed which explains why their are no books to be found in Turkey explaining the cultural legacy of Turkey for Turks to read, all books being State Censored.

Take a look at the below picture, on the your left is the Preseident of Mongolia, on your right is the (ex) President of Turkey Suleiman Demirel.

Notice that for a so-called Turanic person, Demirel looks more Mediterranean, unlike his counterpart the President of Mongolia.
So, who are the people of Modern Turkey?
I will let you ponder on that question...


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MRP
[This message has been edited by Masis (edited May 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Masis (edited May 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Masis (edited May 13, 2001).]

[Masis]

Originally posted by kindal...
"Sorry if it offends you, but I think that is a nosense say that these three islands aren´t European, so it means that no islands are part of a continent, Madagascar aren´t African, Cuba aren´t American or Japan aren´t Asian. So each island is a diferent continent????"

It is hard to offend me, no need to apologise.

No, Iceland is Tectonically neither a part of Europe or America, it can not make its mind up, the island is split into two halves and the unfortunate Icelanders suffer periodical earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.

Ireland is a bastion of Celtic heritage, very little remains in Europe, tihs makes it distinct from the mainland, but back to real-politik, the EEC gives monetary aid to the Republic of Ireland so who are they to worry about their ethnic distinction from the Germans and Latins?

Britain is so ethnically mixed up historically speaking that is will avoid a lot of scholarly headaches if it just says it is an integral part of Europe and clubs in.

The island of Madagascar is technically ethnically a part of Indonesia-How?
Find out Here

The island of Cuba is very seperate from the north American continent, the gulf of Mexico being created by an ancient Asteriod impact that is sited as being the case of the extinction of the Dinosaurs, the crater was deep, leaving a few shattered ridges of islands that had formerly been a part of the north American continent.
Also, it is unlikely Cuba's Communist party will want to be jioned to the U.S.A.

Japan, though it owes its origins to the mainland, has developed a distinct culture that is seperate from that of the mainland, it too is tectonically seperate from the mainland which explains why that archipegalo suffers from periodical earthquakes and volcanic erruptions.

You see Kindal, I was reading about Earth Plate Techtonics when I was six years old, when I say that Iceland is not a part of Europe I know it is not!


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MRP

[Henrik]

I haven't read your two long posts yet Masis but since I jsut answered to your post in the other thread I think I will repost it in here:

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-07-2001 02:30 PM Apologies to Kindal and Henrik if by mentioning the Human Rights abuses of the Spaniards and Scandinavians I have touched a National Nerve within them.

Actually this has nothing to do whit it. I don't think I am even closely related to the vikings (about 5% of Swedens poplutation at the time, and back then I would have been a Dane) the scandinavian nations nationalists do go on about vikings but most people back then where farmers, a few tribes/dukedoms near the coasts where Vikings and managed to do some horrible things, still since I suspect that my ancestors came from the Netherlands back during the Renaissance (lots of Vallonians (not sure thats the right term) moved to scandinavia back then where they where well payed and helped to start the Renaissance in the north).
As Jesús has pointed out I am not blaming Turkey for what it has done but rather for what it is doing right now.

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-07-2001 03:15 PM Can any north European nation claim such an organised society at that period of time? Turkey is the result of the battle of Manazgert (which was a failure for the Romans due to treachery not amateurism),the 4th crusade and subsequent western antagonism towards the Orthodox nations of the Balkans. The Turks acted as a blanket, a very thin military one covering an ancient legacy of civilisation which is why few cities in Turkey today are of Turkish origin. Many Turkish place names translate into their exact Roman origin, for example Silivri Kapi(Gate) on the Theodosian walls was historically called The Gate of Selemvria. Even the area my Grandmother lives is still locally called Samatya, as it was during the Roman Empire. So the blanket of Turkish nationalism is thin indeed which explains why their are no books to be found in Turkey explaining the cultural legacy of Turkey for Turks to read, all books being State Censored. Notice that for a so-called Turanic person, Demirel looks more Mediterranean, unlike his counterpart the President of Mongolia. So, who are the people of Modern Turkey? I will let you ponder on that question...

I think you have prejucidices about our prejucidices
I do not look at Turkey as a barbaric nation I know my history to so you don't need to tell me about how civilized this area has been before there was even such a thing as civilization in Europe.
What I do have problems whit for example is that they occupy a large portion of a neighboring nation.
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited May 07, 2001).]

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-07-2001 03:40 PM Originally posted by kindal... "Sorry if it offends you, but I think that is a nosense say that these three islands aren´t European, so it means that no islands are part of a continent, Madagascar aren´t African, Cuba aren´t American or Japan aren´t Asian. So each island is a diferent continent????" It is hard to offend me, no need to apologise. No, Iceland is Tectonically neither a part of Europe or America, it can not make its mind up, the island is split into two halves and the unfortunate Icelanders suffer periodical earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Ireland is a bastion of Celtic heritage, very little remains in Europe, tihs makes it distinct from the mainland, but back to real-politik, the EEC gives monetary aid to the Republic of Ireland so who are they to worry about their ethnic distinction from the Germans and Latins? Britain is so ethnically mixed up historically speaking that is will avoid a lot of scholarly headaches if it just says it is an integral part of Europe and clubs in. Japan, though it owes its origins to the mainland, has developed a distinct culture that is seperate from that of the mainland, it too is tectonically seperate from the mainland which explains why that archipegalo suffers from periodical earthquakes and volcanic erruptions. You see Kindal, I was reading about Earth Plate Techtonics when I was six years old, when I say that Iceland is not a part of Europe I know it is not!

Ever since I was a very little child I have been told that Ireland and Iceland are Europe have I been lied to?
It is possible that you are paying too much attention to the word "continent" we arent talking about geological continents, but about geografical ones (or even more precise: cartografical (not entirely sure about this word either I am afraid) ).
On all maps Iceland, Ireland and the brittish Isles are defined as european (even tough the brits tends to refer to every other europeans as living on the "continent"). This is how it has been since the midle ages.

[Waku]

This is getting too surealist and I honestly think you're wasting lots of words in what im my opinion are byzantian arguments (in spanish this expression mean unresolvable arguments, I don't know in English, but quite suitable here).

Europe
It's only a name, we need to give names to everything, it's only a good way to identify things. You have just reminded me when Homer Simpson was jumping over a line in the ground (don't remember now which border was it) saying now I'm here... now I'm there... It also reminded me of an argument about Cuba, some say it was in North America, Some Say Central, is it really important? Cuba isn't gonna move from where it is!

btw South America is tectonically a part of Africa

Inquisition, Vikings, ...
Unfortunatelly this kind of things have happened in every country, every culture (they still happen in too many places), human being is a very competitive ape. What we have to do is to try to wipe it out from earth at once. I challenge you to tell me only one culture/country free from sin.

Turkey
I'm not so aware about Turkey or Tunis, but I think they are comparable to Maroc, and I really think these countries are making efforts to become modern countries, they have only started to change, but I'm optimistic. Some latin countries (Spain included) weren't too different 50 years ago, some others are still at the same level than 50 yrs/ago.

[Chris 62]

What the hell are you guys arguing about?!!? I read all the posts in this thread, and I don't understand (Waku, the Simpsons episode you mention was set in Australia, and the Marine guard punched Homer in the head for doing that ). It sounds like Masis is geogrphically challenged. Iceland is a pertruding portion of the mid-Atlantic ridge (As are the Azores), and is a part of Europe, not undecieded. And don't try to argue otherwise, becasue I've been there. Ireland may be Celtic in origin, but how does this make it not a part of Europe? Cuba, and all the Caribbean Islands are part of the Americas, and Madagascar is certainly part of Africa, and to say Japan is not a part of Asia is just non-sense. Spain is not part of Europe? That is insane. The Iberian Pennisular is most certainly an integral part of Europe, and always has been. Is this a question of Turkey being part of Europe? Only a small piece of it, that includes Istanbul, is a part of Europe. The rest, including the capital of Ankara, is in Asia. The bulk of this nation is geograpically Asian, not European. As for culture, that is another matter, but my understanding is you have to be a European nation to be in the EU, not an Asian one, but of course, I could be wrong in this.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Masis]

[quote]Originally posted by Waku on 05-07-2001 06:35 PM
This is getting too surealist and I honestly think you're wasting lots of words in what im my opinion are byzantian arguments (in spanish this expression mean unresolvable arguments, I don't know in English, but quite suitable here).

Byzantian?
don't tell me the Spanish also copy the western lie about the Roman Empire of Constantinople?

"btw South America is tectonically a part of Africa"
No it is not, it too is seperated by the mid-Atlantic ridge being on the left side whilst Africa is on the right side of it.

Inquisition, Vikings, ...
Unfortunatelly this kind of things have happened in every country, every culture (they still happen in too many places), human being is a very competitive ape. What we have to do is to try to wipe it out from earth at once. I challenge you to tell me only one culture/country free from sin.

What about Tibet?
Or the Vatican state?



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MRP

[Masis]

quote: Originally posted by Henrik on 05-07-2001 04:02 PM I haven't read your two long posts yet Masis but since I jsut answered to your post in the other thread I think I will repost it in here: Actually this has nothing to do whit it. I don't think I am even closely related to the vikings (about 5% of Swedens poplutation at the time, and back then I would have been a Dane) the scandinavian nations nationalists do go on about vikings but most people back then where farmers, a few tribes/dukedoms near the coasts where Vikings and managed to do some horrible things, still since I suspect that my ancestors came from the Netherlands back during the Renaissance (lots of Vallonians (not sure thats the right term) moved to scandinavia back then where they where well payed and helped to start the Renaissance in the north). As Jesús has pointed out I am not blaming Turkey for what it has done but rather for what it is doing right now.

Read the two long posts first, I would be grateful indeed.
So the Danes are innocent of Rape and Pillage and Adventurism?
They were probably the most aggresive advenurers of all during the 9th-11th centuries AD.


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MRP

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-08-2001 01:26 PMOr the Vatican state?

I don't know about tibet but the vatican (as contradictory as it may sound) is hardly free from sin...

Hmmm... I too have lost track of what this argument is about one of these though; what is europe and whats not? why isnt Turkey going to be allowed to enter the union? Is it possible to have civilisation whitout war(or "human rights" abuses)?

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-08-2001 01:29 PM Read the two long posts first, I would be grateful indeed. So the Danes are innocent of Rape and Pillage and Adventurism? They were probably the most aggresive advenurers of all during the 9th-11th centuries AD.

That wasn't what I was saying. The vikings where a cruel and a murderous pack, but as I said only a small part of the population was actually Vikings which is why I as I was saying isn't the least nationalistic about them (added whit the part about the Dutch around 1600).

[Henrik]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-08-2001 01:29 PM Read the two long posts first, I would be grateful indeed.

I did thats why there are three posts in a row (much like now )

[Masis]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 05-07-2001 08:52 PM What the hell are you guys arguing about?!!? I read all the posts in this thread, and I don't understand (Waku, the Simpsons episode you mention was set in Australia, and the Marine guard punched Homer in the head for doing that ). It sounds like Masis is geogrphically challenged. Iceland is a pertruding portion of the mid-Atlantic ridge (As are the Azores), and is a part of Europe, not undecieded. And don't try to argue otherwise, becasue I've been there. Ireland may be Celtic in origin, but how does this make it not a part of Europe? Cuba, and all the Caribbean Islands are part of the Americas, and Madagascar is certainly part of Africa, and to say Japan is not a part of Asia is just non-sense. Spain is not part of Europe? That is insane. The Iberian Pennisular is most certainly an integral part of Europe, and always has been. Is this a question of Turkey being part of Europe? Only a small piece of it, that includes Istanbul, is a part of Europe. The rest, including the capital of Ankara, is in Asia. The bulk of this nation is geograpically Asian, not European. As for culture, that is another matter, but my understanding is you have to be a European nation to be in the EU, not an Asian one, but of course, I could be wrong in this.

Did you like the Azores by the way?
God knows where you are getting the false quote that I said Spain is not a part of Europe, my stance is that to be a member of the EEC your country needs to be near Europe, I was merely giving Irony to the idea that Turkey, Morroco and Tunisa are not a part of/near Europe by comparing the membership of such nations as Iceland, Britain and the Republic of Ireland (by the way, why is Sweden not a member of the EEC?) and that apparently they have had no historical integration into a European realm which is nonsense when you look back to the Roman Empire of the 1st-7th centuies AD, by the 7th century much of Spain and all of Gaul had passed out of Roman control but Mauritania Tingitana (Morroco), Numidia (Tunisa), and Anatolia (Turkey) were still a part of it, continuing the process of civilisation that had ceased in other parts of Europe.
The modern nations of Tunisa, Morroco and Turkey only need to clean up their Act and their economy to obtain EEC membership, other than that they have nothing to prove to Brussels or Strasbourg.

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MRP
[This message has been edited by Masis (edited May 08, 2001).]