Andalusian Secession?

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 05-05-2001 04:38 PM Sonner or later Maroc will become a member of the European Community (that moment is still a little far away, but time will tell). Among other things it would solve the fishing problems.

You think so? Why? What would Morocco be doing in Europe? That sounds even more ludicrous to me than Israel being a UEFA member Although it's true that it might solve a lot of problems, not only the fidhing thing.

If the day comes that Morocco is accepted into the EC, would Ceuta and Melilla be given to Morocco then?

[Waku]

Ceuta & Melilla
The only cultural difference betwen C&M and any other coastal city in Andalusia is that nowadays there are more muslims than in the past. If you ever talk to someone from there you would think you're talking to an andalusian.

Tartessos
No matter if it existed or not is a very beautiful subjet in History, to use it with nationalist purposes is as ridiculous as using the history of the indians who sold Manhantan to propose a country there.

[Jay Bee]

Agreed on both counts


Should we touch a very thorny subject? Do you think Ceuta and Melilla will some day be given to Morocco? (Note that I did not write returned but given). I have mixed feelings about this. Although historically, culturally, ethnically etc there is no basis at all for such an action, I still can't find anything against the territorial principle.

[kIndal]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 05-05-2001 04:38 PM Sonner or later Maroc will become a member of the European Community (that moment is still a little far away, but time will tell). Among other things it would solve the fishing problems.

I don´t think that Morrocco will be a member of EC, Why do you think that? I think i won´t be usefull for EU (in a long,long,long future ). And wy are going to give C&M to Morroco then? English hasn´t returned Gibraltar to us when we formed part of the Union.


[This message has been edited by kIndal (edited May 06, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by kIndal (edited May 06, 2001).]

[Waku]

Why not?

I see more advantages than disadvantages, of course they will have to become a real democracy. It wouldn't mean C&M have to be given to Maroc but its status would change somehow.

[Jay Bee]

Why not? because Morocco is not in Europe. I find that a very cogent reason

[Jay Bee]

Waku, applying for something means little if the application makes no sense, does not follow the rules or, most importantly, is not succesful. Spain stupidly applied for years when it was absolutely obvious that her chances were nil.

A very important portion of Turkey's territory is in Europe. Istanbul was for several centuries one of most important cities of Europe.

Masis,

I am puzzled. Britain, Iceland and Ireland may not be attached to the continent but they are Europe nevertheless. This is the first time I hear something like this. Maybe that's the reason why Brits in general are so allergic to the thing Continental?

Russia not being part of Europe.... I do not think a comment on this is needed... aside from the fact that Russia will never ever apply for EC membership.


PS. Soccer always sets examples. British federations, Iceland, Russia and Turkey are affiliated to the UEFA. Morocco does not and never will



[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited May 06, 2001).]

[Waku]

Right, but means little because of political reasons not because of geographical reasons. As I've already said time will tell.

BTW, did u know marocans ar culés?

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 05-06-2001 03:48 PM Right, but means little because of political reasons not because of geographical reasons

Agreed, but I see no way to separate politics from geography here

quote: BTW, did u know marocans ar culés?

Can't understand why the culeism has flourished so much recently. Well, with Gaspart it'll drop je, je (hopefully). Valladolid is also full of culés... puajjj. In this case it's probably an anti-centralist thing but still..

[kIndal]

I think that there aren´t so many advantage. Morroco is still a very poor and corrupt country and if they entered in EC will suppose that tons of illegal inmigrants become in legal and a great afluence of inmigrants will bring a lot of social-cultural-economical problems, and in Europe aren´t so free-thinking to let this without problems.Without speaking that all the economical helps will be given to them, and if nw the union will be expand to East Europe and has a lot of problems...fro me is very strange speak about a a future enter of Morocco, anyway I think that our eyes won´t see it
But if we suppose that Morroco in a far future are a democratic and more or less developed country, if they become member a member of the EC the South frontier with Africa become so big to be protect from illegal inmigrant from Subsaharian countries.
But speaking about this region, what do you think about the dream of make a tunnel between the coast of mediterrean sea??

[Masis]

quote: Originally posted by Henrik on 05-06-2001 12:58 PM Iceland and Ireland are parts of Europe, Brittain is also a part of Europe Turkey is part of Asia Minor and as long as they is occupying half of Cyprus they wont get near the Union.

Sorry, but I would like to laugh at the idea that Iceland, Ireland and Britain are geographically part of Europe (which they are not-nitice the presence of seas seperating them from the continent) but I have to be serious on this matter.
Also, is Cyprus applying for membership of the EEC?
It to is geographically seperated from Europe by an enormous amount of sea (following the Waku theory that a country has to be geographically a part of Europe to be a member.
Personally I think it is nonsense in this era of glolbalisation to bother about how near a country is-rather how much a country matches the membership requirements such as a stable economy in wich case Turkey at the moment has not got a hope.
Yes, I know about the Cyprus question, do you think me, an Armenian, is ignorant of the Turkish governments behaviour and administration of its own country? Turkish people are as much opressed as non Turkish minorities within Turkey, the large amount of Gejikondus (shacks built during the night to aviod the ancient tax law that said a house built during the night can aviod paying taxes) inhabited by Muslim Turks is testimony to the general hopelessness of the Turkish government in seeing to the affairs of its countrymen.
The vast amount of Turkish citizens can find Christian ancestry in their family roots in which case they can rightfully claim to be legitimate citizens of Anatolia (not Asia Minor, an anachronistic Roman word).
As Christians, they were part of the powerful Roman (Byzantine-another false western word designed to insult the legitimate Empire to bolster the phonet 'Holy Roman Empire' which was neither Holy being strongly secularist in its behaviour and Roman being mostly German) Empire which continued the prestige of civilisation in Europe whilst the west squated under Frankish tyranny (except of course the comparitve tolerance of Al Andalus-to which this post is therefore highly relevent).
Therefore Turkey can claim to be a part of Europe, even I as an Armenian will seek to support Turkey whenever it's peoples are insulted as being some kind of sub-humans,(the same kind of western insults that caused the roman Empire of Constantinople to be called 'Byzantine' a word never used by the Romans to describe themselves, their City or their Empire) Armenians, Kurds and Greeks (Romans) are a part of the blood stock of modern Turkey, just as I am sure Berbers may be in the blood stock of a lot of Andalusians, yet does that make the Andalusians a foriegn sub-human people?

This reply may case a large amount of replies wich is a pity as the actual Topic subject is about Andulusian seperatism.



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MRP

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Masis on 05-06-2001 04:39 PM (following the Waku theory that a country has to be geographically a part of Europe to be a member.

I beg your pardon!
I haven't said that, in fact I'm the only one here thinking that Maroc will become a member of the EU in the future.

I would suggest u to read my posts (quite easy as I never write long speaches)

[Flip]

I think the problem is that nobody has the perfect definition of what Europe is. During a stage in Switzerland as an Erasmus student one time a French one said me: Well if you are Spanish you are not European, you are African because Europe ends in the Pyrinees mountains.
In fact I think he was partially right, after all historically, culturally and geographically I am nearest to Maroc than for example Sweden or Poland.

About the politic of the CE I think that the Mediterranean Sea must not be a wall like it was historically after the fall of the Roman Empire, I think it must be a link as it was during the ancients times. I will believe more in a Mediteranean Union (of course south Mediterranean countries must change a lot politically) than in the EU. After all the EU politic has not being very comprehensive in “south subjects” like desert advance in SE Spain or olive oil (Mr. Fischler made me and I think also to quite a lot of Andalusians a little sceptics about europeism)

[Masis]

quote: Originally posted by Waku on 05-06-2001 12:25 PM Someone should explain to Maroc & Turkey that to be in Europe is a prerequisite since they have applied to become a member.

Sorry Waku, but judging by the above quote, that is how you came across to me-meaning that aparently neither countries appear to be in Europe-which Turkey is.
A long speach explains better than a short sppeach it seems.

Turkeys real reason for being turned down as a member of the EEC (though it has a Customs Union) is real-politik, the economy.
Today 2,000,000 million Turkish Lira=£1 English Pound.
Following that, how are they expected to rebuilt the destroyed towns of Izmit (Nikomedia) and Adapazar ('Island Market')?

It can not really be due to Human Rights abuses as Norway and other Scandinavian countries have blood on their hands too-The Vikings (famous Viking torture 'the blood eagle' in which a person was tied to a stake, had their chest slit open and the ribs pulled apart).
Spain, alas, has also it's fair share of Human Rights abuses-The Inquisition + The conquest of the Americas leading to the enslavement of Thousands of Native Americans and the destruction of the MesoAmerican socieities.
France-major incedent that springs to mind is the great Terror folloing the Revolution, though their were always brutal suppresion of peasant revolts down the ages.
Germany-The Holocaust of non-German minorities.
Italy-The Roman Colosseum, probably the most disgusting creation ever made by man to kill fellow man and rare animals (which explains why their are no more Lions in the Middle-East)
Englans-The Higland Clearances (which explain why if you ever visit the Highlands of Scotland they are virtually empty of habitation, quite a contrast to the 18th century which records show a large population with growing industries)+ Plus the suppresion of the Irish Catholics + The destruction of the Welsh Kingdom + The horrors of the 100 years war in France + Atrocities commited against Indians such as the Amritsar massacre.
U.S.A-The Genocide of the Native Americans.

Certainly, I as an Armenian condem the Turkish government's behaviour towards us and also towards its own Muslim citizens, but other nations too have to face War Crimes and Human Rights abuses, so the notion that Turkey is prohibited from jioning the EEC due to such notions falls flat when you realise what other 'Developed' nation have done to become 'Developed'.




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MRP

[Waku]

Someone should explain to Maroc & Turkey that to be in Europe is a prerequisite since they have applied to become a member.