Andalusian Secession?

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 05-04-2001 05:53 PM Do you know why/how/when Andalucia was constituted with 8 provinces?

Not really, but I remember I map where Hu-Se-Ca formed a province and Ma-Gr-Al another one. Not sure about Co and J

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 05-04-2001 05:53 PM Do you agree that Algarve belonged to Tartessos?

Yes, but I think it has rained a lot since then.

I think I understand your point now, you mean that andalusian ethnical roots are that old. Well there's probably some true but imho andalusian ethnical roots are more complex and we are mainly castilian (ethnically)

[Jay Bee]

Yes. What I gathered from my visits to that independentist web was that the universal right of Andalusia to become an independent nation is supported by three uncontested historical realities: Tartessos, the Baetic province and Al-Andalus. I understand this trilogy was enunciated by Blas Infante himself, so for "Andalusianists" this should be like the holy word of the prophet.

I never understood this. There are places in Modern day Andalusia that never belonged to the Baetica. Conversely many places that once were part of Tartessos and Al-Andalus are not currently considered Andalusia. Some of the latter are more or less obvious, others (Algrave)... not so much to me.

When I inquired about these inconsistencies what I received was insults and stuff like that
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited May 04, 2001).]

[XarXo]

Well, after another "experiences" in this forum speaking about nationalism I should be really careful . Well, let's try:

Spain (as I always said) born as a confederal state, this is, the same level for the Aragonese Confederation with the Castilla-Leon kingdom.
Remember the "Tanto monta, monta tanto", please

But the french absolutism was really popular in the european courts, so Spain forget the oroginal model and... Well, here are we, in the "Great Castilla". The result is an extraordinary amount of discussions and problems.

In this puzzle of languages and countries, we have some strange results:

Castilla-Leon : How is possible that Leon doesn't exist as an independent community? Was a kingdom, and HAS (not HAD) an own language (asturleonese).

Andalucia : As I discovered in a discussion in this forum, there are two andalusian blocks, the Sevilla one and the Granada-Almeria other one. Them are really different, so... Why? Why not Andalucia and "Pais Granadino" or something similar? The Guadalquivir valley and the Sierra Nevada zone are two different zones. Strange...

Aragon: Who in the hell invented the oriental border with Catalonia? The border with this region was the Cinca river, not the Noguera Ribagorçana.
Also, in this region the people speaks catalan too! If they spoke castillian or aragonese, all OK, but speaking catalan (an 80% of the people!)??????

Comunidad Valenciana: From the XVI century to the middle of XX, always sayed as "Pais Valenciano", now if you say this name in València you will be killed in a few seconds... What happened?

La Rioja, Madrid, Cantabria, Murcia, Extremadura: All them castillian countries, without any kingdom moment or WHAT? In Cantabria yes (the cantabru asturleonese dialect) ant Extremadura too (the extremeño asturleonese dialect), but La Rioja? Only beause was the place where castillian born? Why not Girona too? Murcia is a peculiar case, without Albacete, what is it? It was the Mancha country, now is... Region de Murcia? And for Madrid? With its pathetical seven star flag without historical background? What kind of community is THIS? Also with Melilla and Ceuta, they are andalusian provinces!

Catalonia, yes, in the XIX a very nationalist focus and in the 1640 an independent try, but why not the "Valencian Community" has the same level? The valencian nationalism born in the XV when the people changed in to the "valencian" name for its language (catalanesque*, not catalan), and also was a kingdom.

I only consider "well worked" communities for Galicia (yess! A good one! Sorry for the actual president, a prehistorical fascist dinosaur), Asturias (a bit poor, their asturleonese language hasn't any kind of protection), Euskadi, Navarra, Aragon (the same as Asturia, what happens with its language??), Catalonia and Ses Illes Balears.

Valencian Community, Andalucia and Castilla SHOULD be reworked (remember, always in my opinion).

And I don't enter in the etnic divisions (a truly polemic theme ).

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*Catalanesque name for the language appeared at (aprox) 1235 in a letter of Ramon Muntaner saying "parlen lo bell catalanesc" about the people of Oriola ("Orihuela") and all the rest of the southern Valencian Community.

[kIndal]

quote: I totally agree with Ceuta and Melilla being part of Andalusia. I seem to recall however that they were not 'accepted' into the Autonmous Community mostly for economic reasons. Am I right?

I don´t think so, I think that it will be a remisniscence of Spanish domains in North Africa (or America has only Andalusian reminiscences??), from Catholic Monarchs to the Protectorate of Morrocco (Do you know Jay Bee? ), but today it redeuced only to the 2 cities. I don´t know i they were refused to enter in the autonomity, but actually they have some economics privileges (the last monday,I made a explanation at university about some of this ) and I think that this help to support the Spanish population and support the economical activities in the zone, who invest here if not? And if they´d be Andalusian they will be wore for them, IMHO.

quote: Algarve as an integral part of the holy Tartessian heritage. Kindal's comments on Infante made me think this was a generalized belief. The Algarve was definitely a part of Tartessos, wasn't it?

I don´t know a almost anything about Tartessos (I believe that you, guys, speak a lot about them in the past, don´t you? ) but I am sure that they Andalusian nationalist confused "Empire" with "zone of influence", I am sure that Tartessians could commerce with a lot of tribes of Spain but it doesn´t signified that they were their vassals, the only Tartessian reminiscence in Almería is some old pottery found in a mountain, only one, I think it isn´t enough. And In Almería, Granada Jaen, Murcia and Albacete was a tribe called Bastetanos (most important city in Basti, actually Baza) and they are an iberian tribe.

quote: But what I fail to understand is why Andalusia was constituted by 8 provinces (whenever that may happened) and other very proximal territories were left out. Specifically, why Almeria is Andalusia and Murcia is not? Who decided on this? Under what criteria? I asked that above to our almeriense expert but he does not seem to be on line.

quote: Do you know why/how/when Andalucia was constituted with 8 provinces?

I am going to do a very small comments about the diferent administral regions along the history.
In Roman age, Baetica was almost all actual Andalusia, except Almería and some parts of North Granada and East Jaen, which formed part of Cartaginensis, province of Tarraconensis.
This regions was supported by Visigoths and Muslims, yes, by muslims, too. With Caliphate of Cordova,the old Tarraconensis was called al-Sarq (it means East province or something like this), and Baetica support the name of al-Andalus, the same as all the peninsula (I think that is something similar to the differences between Catalan and Catalanesco,more or less the same name for diferent regions, isn´t it, Xarxo?).
With the small kingdoms (como se dice taifas?) the Berbers (i believe) formed the kingdoms in al-Andalus, and Eslavos in al-Sarq, more or less.
The reconquest of al-Andalus was in XIII century but not was until 200 years later when was conquested the kigndom of Granada.
In Christian hands the South of Spain was divided in two kindoms:
*the kingdom of Andalusia formed by the kingdoms of Seville (Seville,Huelva and Cadiz), Cordova and Jaen
*the kingdom of Granada, it was repopulationed in two ways, West zone (Malaga and most part of Granada) by Andalusian people and East zone (Almeria and some parts of East Granada) by Murcianos, Aragoneses, Valencianos, Jienenses and some castilians.
This two kingdoms was separated since 1833, when all the term of kingdom was remove from all the regions of Spain, and all Spanish south was called Andalusia, but with diferents adinistrationsand two capitals the West one, Seville and East one, Granada.
When the Autonomous communities´ process started, in 1976-1977 and was proposed a autonomoty to East Andalusia was it was refused (I don´t know anything more about it )

flag of Eastern Andalusia community.
And when in 28 febraury (Andalusia´s day) of 1980 was voted the autonomity´s referendum, Almeria don´t get the 50% needed to be a province of Andalusia but it was introduced to the community by reasons of "national interest" and avoiding the legal text of the referedum which said that can´t be made other referendum unitl 5 years later (or it wsa 1 year, i don´t remember), there was a lot of problems with the voting and some cars with almeria´s registration number was burned and destroyed, but it is another history.

quote: Castilla-Leon : How is possible that Leon doesn't exist as an independent community? Was a kingdom, and HAS (not HAD) an own language (asturleonese). Andalucia : As I discovered in a discussion in this forum, there are two andalusian blocks, the Sevilla one and the Granada-Almeria other one. Them are really different, so... Why? Why not Andalucia and "Pais Granadino" or something similar? The Guadalquivir valley and the Sierra Nevada zone are two different zones. Strange...

I agree this time with Xarxo, these two regions (Leon and Granada) must be independent communities (they appear in Spainsh coat of arms in diferents sqares, why not in an atlas?).
In the last years all the administrative services placed in Granada has been sent to Seville (a lot of centralism in the south), so if a person from Almeria want to do a official document, he has to go to a city 450 km far (Madrid is only a bit more, 500 or 600??), and how hell are going to know the problems of a province in a goverment placed as far as Valencia?.

[Henrik]

I must say that reading through all this is very interesting

[Flip]

I think that flag of Eastern Andalusia community seems horrible. But is only my opinion. Anybody knows the flag of the ancient kindong of Granada? The coat of arms of the nazaries is well known but did they had a flag?.

[Flip]

Another question:
And Gibraltar,
everybody speaks about Ceuta, Melilla, even Murcia or the Algarve as parts of andalusia but what is happening with Gibraltar?

[kIndal]

quote: Originally posted by Flip on 05-05-2001 05:00 AM I think that flag of Eastern Andalusia community seems horrible.

Yes, I think that it isn´t very nice.

I don´t know anything about a nazari´s flag, but I believe that a legend said when Boabdil surrendered Granada, give to Catholic Monarchs a flag and a chest. it could be he nazari one.

About Gibraltar, well, if it isn´t Spanish , how are we going to speak it is Andalusian?

[Jay Bee]

A few misc comments

The seven stars of the flag of Madrid come from its seal, which is very very old. What I do not get right is the red of the flag. Should have been purple. Better, it should have not been. Madrid province should have been integrated into Castile-La Mancha and leave Madrid city as something like a Federal District (a la Mexico DF or Washington).

Leon. I do not quite understand the claims of some of you for an independent Leon. What is that asturleonese language? All my family are from Leon and Asturias and I assure you, they speak Castilian, very old sometimes, but Castilian after all. Are you talking about Bable perhaps? That's mostly a Galician dialectal form.

So you'd separate Leon. Only Leon? What about Zamora and Salamanca? From what I saw, these two provinces feel the thing Castilian quite strongly. Castile and Leon united in the XII century (XII century!!!). Nothing remains from a Leonese identity that can be distinguished from the Castilian one. Only the name. Just the name.

I can't see the Eastern Andalusian flag ;(


PS. Only Spaniards participating in this debate, yet we are still using English. So weird! We could eventually switch to Spanish, I think

PPS. Somebody participate in the Quotes thread!!!

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by kIndal on 05-05-2001 03:36 AM Protectorate of Morrocco (Do you know Jay Bee? )

(Check out your e-mail)


[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited May 05, 2001).]

[Masis]

Question-
Are there still Muslims in Hispania?
Was reading a web site (now defunct) on the Islamic history of Hispania, narrated by a Muslim tourist, of many things said how he got into trouble when he a former Mosque in Cordova and prayed...
Interesting, also said about things like Colombus noting the Moorish dress of certain Carribean peoples and apparently seeing Mosques on the islands as well!

Playing Carolus invictisimus, as the Ottomans, focused on conquering Oran and the Spanish Vassal; Tunisia (Inreresting how the designer got to place Spanish Viceroys within the Barbarian cities without the game crashing).
As the Ottomans slowly liberated the north African coast from Hispanic counter-measures around the 1520's I noted that there was a revolt by the moors in Granada around 1560 was it due to the presence of the Ottomans across the sea and the hope of military aid that prompted them to revolt?
During the game, managed to get control of the fortress of Jebal Tariq (Gibraltar), which illustrated how dangerous the situation was for the Spanish Kingdom at the time, with military aid slowly being re-focussed on the New World and all it promised, the likely-hood of permantly occupying north Africa dwindled, leaving an easy route for the Barbarosas.

I would say that Jay Bee's Spanish Civ II site is the best for downloading Great Scenarios!

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MRP

[Jay Bee]

Thanks Masis!

There are many Muslims, of course, especially in the south (so close to the Mahgreb), just as there are Protestants or Jews. I guess you are referring to some kind of Spanish Muslim culture & heritage. Then the answer is no. I have read somewhere that even the most bigotted Muslim in the world no longer considers Spain as part of the Islamic world. That despite the Alhambra, Cordoba and so on.

BTW, does anybody know whether the Islam allows sculptures with human or animal forms? I ask this because when I was in the Alhambra a few months ago, the guide stated it didn't to justify why the Patio de los Leones was hidden to the view of strangers. However, looking over a catalog of the Ummayyad Exposure of Cordoba I can see plenty of objects with human and animal forms.

[XarXo]

quote: Leon. I do not quite understand the claims of some of you for an independent Leon. What is that asturleonese language? All my family are from Leon and Asturias and I assure you, they speak Castilian, very old sometimes, but Castilian after all. Are you talking about Bable perhaps? That's mostly a Galician dialectal form.

Jaybee, castillian was born as a dialect between euskera and the asturleonese (the language of Leon). The asturleonese (not "bable", the word "bable" is really despective, and is a castillian word) was born in the asturian country, is nearly to the galician language, but it isn't galician, has six great dialects: asturianu, leonesu, bragançu, baixo leunesu, cantabru and extremeñu. In Portugal (where it is totally official) is spoken in the northeast border zone (Bragança).

Asturleonese is older than castillian (like aragonese), so it is impossible that it is a dialect from castillian. About if it is Galician, not. There aren't gramatically, semantical and fonetically basic semblances. Probably is a Celtaic language that was mixed with Latin and Esukera in a far past.

A good option to know if something is a dialect or a language, check the non-usual words and the subjuntive verb forms. The words that more evolve in all the languages are the ones that are more used (for example, English and American). The fonetical divergences can't be used, because they are different ideas to express the same language.

About the possible region of Leon (i believe), must include Salamanca and Zamora, but not all the provincial territory, the "Great Leon" (in the VIII-IX) also included a part of Valladolid and other castillian provinces, but the actual "Leon" is like a spaghetti in the western spanish border that takes a part of Extremadura. The only province that could be totally included is Leon. Leon is a city that have an important economical and social power in the zone.

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 05-05-2001 12:16 PM Do you think Ceuta and Melilla will some day be given to Morocco?

Sonner or later Maroc will become a member of the European Community (that moment is still a little far away, but time will tell). Among other things it would solve the fishing problems.

[Jay Bee]

quote: Originally posted by XarXo on 05-05-2001 02:07 PM Jaybee, castillian was born as a dialect between euskera and the asturleonese (the language of Leon).

He, he, do you know who's said something like that no so long ago? Mr Manuel Fraga, the incombustible. Just today there is a very interesting editorial article in Gara about this (www.gara.net). I suggest you to read it. Pure genious.


Xarxo, you seem to possess some provocative info on the subject. Could you provide me (us) with some bibliografical info about Leon and the asturleonese language. I'd be interested to dive into the original sources


[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited May 05, 2001).]