Philippines

[Stefan Härtel]

First, cpoulos, thank you very much for that document. I guess that if I ever need any info on american history, you are the right person to ask?

Second, in case if anyone is interested, here are the statistics for the imperial marine as taken from Ks. Wilhelm's Tables (1899):

Ironclads:

1894: "Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm"
1000 Tons I Class

1894: "Weissenburg"
3490 Tons IV Class

1895: "Hagen"
3490 Tons IV Class

1895: "Heimdall"
3940 Tons IV Class

1896: "Odin"
3530 Tons IV Class

1896: "Aegir"
3530 TOns IV Class

1898: "Kaiser Friedrich III"
1100 Tons I Class

1899: "Friedrich der Grosse"
1100 Tons

Iron Cruisers:

1899: "Ersatz (replacement) Leipzig"
10000 Tons I Class

Protected Cruisers:

1898: "Ersatz (replacement) Freya"
5600 Tons II Class

1897: "K"
5600 Tons II Class

1897: "L"
5600 Tons II Class

1898: "M"
5600 Tons II Class

1898: "N"
5600 Tons II Class

Remarks: On April 1st 1898 the Imperial Navy of Germany totalled 96 ships: 19 Ironclads of Class I, II and IV
13 Armoured Gunboats
24 Cruisers of I-IV Class
3 Gunboats
and 37 ships of other types.

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[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-28-2001 07:06 AM Also I must bring here these famous words by Roosevelt: "please tell the President to send more troops to the island, for we might be on the verge of the greatest American disaster", which tell me that if the Spanish army had had German guns, the invasion of Cuba by the American troops could have resulted in a massacre. The Spanish did not receive German guns only because Britain vetoed it.

It might be best to state right here that the US forces sent to Cuba were poorly led and organized, while the American navy was in better shape. Roosevelt's "Rough Riders" were recently raised voulenteers, and Teddy Roosevelt knew more about sea power then land power. As with all what if's, who can say? As you know better then myself, Spain was using many european weapons at this time. The powers at the time seem really reluctant to take the US or american republics(which would receive US support under the Monroe Doctrone). But one last comment on this war: The American press started this war for complex reasons(mostly so that the US could have it's "place in the sun"). For Stefan: Any time you need anything else, just drop me a line, and I'll help if I can.

[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 28, 2001).]

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-28-2001 07:06 AM PS. The comment about history being written in an Anglophile way meant to be a compliment.

Thank you!


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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[kIndal]

And what´s about the German disembark in Carolines Islands???? When Spain people claimed for a war against Germany. It had been very funny, the conquest of the peninsula by German, hehehe.

I think that Spain has some posibilities of supporting (not win) the war, with the active help of Germany, but the Spanish goverment and general were totally incompetent. The Cavite combat in Philippines could be win by Spanish if generals had made the timely actions, put mines in the bay and armed the cannons (they were in stores), and the Spanish warships weren´t so bad, but they were very bad conservated. And we have to remember that Egipcian goverment didn´t allowed the passing of Camara´s navy by the Channel of Suez, animated by Great Britain. In Ground campaigns US forces hadn´t any posibilities of winning Spanish forces but the last colonies were very far from the mother country and there was no money to a long war.

And what about the conquest of Guam??? the American warships started to bombing the Spanish fort, but with so bad aim that Spanish thought that Americans were making cannon´s salvoes, they took a boat and went to American ships to say that they couldn´t return the salutes because they had no gunpowder and projectiles for their cannons (and had any radio because they didn´t know that Spain and USA were in war).

Stefan, i have sent you an email.

[jasev]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-27-2001 06:44 AM What is a pity is that, except for the names of most of the people, Philippines has completely lost its Hispanic roots. Practically no one speaks Spanish there anymore. The Americans did in Philippines what they didn't do in California, Florida, Texas etc.... It's so funny that people called Marcos, Aquino or Estrada can't speak a word in Spanish! [This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 27, 2001).]

Jay Bee, this time I must disagree. The Yankees aren't guilty of that. In fact, Spanish are. The true is that spanish clerics never teach the spanish language to the tribes in Philippines, they prefered to learn the local languages. ¿The cause? This way, they were able to control the situation because they were a necessary intermediary between spanish officers and the natives. The Catholic church, today, is still a very strong political force in Philippines and the spanish kings, who gave the islands them, are guilty of that "losing spanish roots"... because that roots never existed.

Answering to Stephan's original request, I've got a book: "Yo te diré...", by Manuel Leguineche, that exposes the previous wars against the natives, the complete conquest of the islands by the americans and the consequences of all that. If you are interested, I can provide you of information.


[This message has been edited by jasev (edited February 07, 2001).]

[Waku]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-27-2001 06:44 AM What is a pity is that, except for the names of most of the people, Philippines has completely lost its Hispanic roots. Practically no one speaks Spanish there anymore. The Americans did in Philippines what they didn't do in California, Florida, Texas etc.... It's so funny that people called Marcos, Aquino or Estrada can't speak a word in Spanish! [This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 27, 2001).]

There is something curious about the spanish inherit of Philippines. Not only their names are spanish but the way they count, they speak english but they use numbers (dates, hours, etc.) in spanish. I know this 'cos i work in the maritime sector (there are always lots of Philippines among the crew) and i have had to answer in spanish questions like these: what time is the ship sailing?, in which bay r we gonna start? how much does it weight? ...

funny isn't it?

[Jay Bee]

Jasev,

I think you are putting too much faith (or too little, depending on the viewpont ) in our Holy Catholic Church (no pun intended). I accept that the Spanish language did not reach and/or was not of much use for a majority of natives living in 'less-civilized' areas. But to say that no Spanish roots ever existed in Philippines is unfair and exaggerated. The fact that a huge number of filipino people have Spanish names proves the Hispanic roots of these people beyond any doubt. But there is also the folklore, the customs, the architecture.... the tagalo language is still so impregnated by 350 years of Spanish presence that even its phonetics is remarkably similar to that of Spanish. I really believe that Philippines is still a Hispanic country... where nobody speaks Spanish.

Spanish was the language of government, of business, of leisure, of everything... Any filipino who wanted to be somebody had necessarily to speak Spanish. That seems obvious. When the Americans came they just eliminated Spanish and put English in its place (perfectly logical, on the other hand). That's why today's filipinos speak tagalo and English. And that's also why so many dark-skinned, Spanish-speaking filipinos left their country to settle in Spain (Isabel Preysler among them) or Latin America. I bet you know several people with filipino blood.

The issue is, why the filipino lost the Spanish language? Why such a 'de-hispanization' happened in Philippines and not e.g. in Puerto Rico??? Most likely because the filipino people, unlike the Puertoricans, did not care at all whether their masters were Spanish- or English-speaking. In this sense I agree with your viewpoint and accept that Spanish colonial rule miserably failed to create a Hispanic sense of pride among the filipino people, this making the 'de-hispanization' much easier.

Another interesting example of strong sense of Hispanic pride is that of the Pueblo Indians of New Mexico... I am digressing