HRE NES - Development

[foolish_icarus]

We won't know anything at all about them, even by reputation or observation? How about a range for, say 3 randomly selected stats that we'll know before we put him into battle.

For example Graf A, upon receiving his commission might be described as "apparently not disloyal, or at least very disceet about his disloyalty; you don't know much about him simply because he is such an unmemorable man, who from your source's recollection sometimes cannot recall him saying anything at all, and certainly not anything that hadn't already been expressed. His name inspires little or no response, but when his unpleasant, scowling face, and apparently poor hygiene are described a few more suddenly recall who you are speaking of"
(from the stats of 5, 2, 4 in loyalty, charisma, and agression, although that won't be stated)

[Micha]

Wow, this is great!

Took quite some time reading through all this, but it´s worth it! I´d be definately in!

One question: Do you know "Crusader Kings" by Paradox Entertainment? Most of what you´re describing sounds very familiar to me from this game, and it is quite a lot of fun concentrating on individual characters with traits and stats...

Would it be possible to appoint courtiers (steward, chancellor, spymaster etc.) to help you managing your realm? It´d be a neat way to add another distinguishing element, as even two equally rich demesnes wouldn´t churn out the same amounts of denarii with deifferent stewards...

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by foolish_icarus
We won't know anything at all about them, even by reputation or observation? How about a range for, say 3 randomly selected stats that we'll know before we put him into battle.

It's probably a good idea to tell a little bit about them - the most obvious trait is always going to be charisma, so that could comprise most of the description. A Graf might be a tactical genius, brave, and very loyal, but few will say good things about him if he's just not likeable. On the other hand, a foolish, incapable general might be very charismatic, and everyone might have nice things to say despite the fact that he's inept. I will probably handle them all on an individual basis.

Originally posted by Micha
Wow, this is great!

Took quite some time reading through all this, but it´s worth it! I´d be definately in!

Cool, that's two. If we can just get two more...

One question: Do you know "Crusader Kings" by Paradox Entertainment? Most of what you´re describing sounds very familiar to me from this game, and it is quite a lot of fun concentrating on individual characters with traits and stats...

No, never heard of it. A computer game?

Would it be possible to appoint courtiers (steward, chancellor, spymaster etc.) to help you managing your realm? It´d be a neat way to add another distinguishing element, as even two equally rich demesnes wouldn´t churn out the same amounts of denarii with deifferent stewards...

The interesting part of this time period is that such institutions were just starting to form in Europe, specifically France - in Germany, you must remember that all these "Dukes," despite their titles, had only recently been upstart tribal war leaders who were not really different than their ancestors that pillaged the Roman Empire.

Even the feudal system was only imported about a generation or two before this NES starts. Thus, while there are no such positions as steward, chancellor, etc., at the start of the game, I suppose it would be possible to appoint such people. I will certainly give it some thought, but I'm a bit wary of making it too video-gamish; I would rather have people manage their demsenes and such by coming up with ways to improve them rather than just finding a chancellor with good stats.

[Cyclotron]

I'll just keep moving here with new developments. I figure, the more the prospective players know, the more forgiving the learning curve will be when and if we start.

There are a few titles used by your nobility, taken from the German - some might be slight anachronisms, but it works for me.

Ritter - Knight. Most of your generals will not be this lowly, but it's possible that one could take over, either having shown himself to be especially skilled or by taking over after his liege has died in battle.
Freiherr - Baron. The lowest level of landed nobility.
Vizegraf - Viscount, or literally "vice count."
Graf - Count, the highest rank - next to Duke, of course, but you won't be giving anyone else that rank.

Of the Counts, there are several types, though these aren't terribly important to know except for flavor purposes:
Burggraf - A count in charge of a city or fortress. The most prestigious kind of count.
Landgraf - A "countryside" count, the most common type.
Rhinegraf - You only get one guess for this one.
Markgraf - A count in charge of a "march," or borderland region. Their fiefs are usually marginal, but they have prestige because they are often on the front lines of any invasion, and are charged with 'taming' the marches.
Wildgraf - A count with wild lands, marches, or deep forests in his possession - not very prestigious, but still a count.

Titles are important because, as Duke, it is in your power to expand a person's fief and thus raise their title. Doing so contribute's to the noble's loyalty, but if they are truly disloyal than it may only serve to whet their greed. Titles come with land, however, so be warned that making every one of your generals a Graf will start to erode your ducal demesne.

Also attached is the info sheet used for each Duchy so far, featuring Swabia:

Duchy of Swabia
Ruler: Duke Burchard, Age 46
Wife: Frederada of Swabia
Children: Burchard, Age 11
Relations: None of Interest
Current Heir: Erchanger of Swabia (brother)
Treasury: 10,000 denarii
Total Income: 4,000 denarii
Troop Upkeep: 2,400 denarii
Loss from Raiding: 1,300 denarii (Magyars)
Loss from Corruption: 640 denarii
Total Gain/Loss: -340 denarii

Territory: Duchy of Swabia
Size Rating: 100%
Principal Towns:
Stuttgart (court, treasury, armory, palisade, chapel)
Strassburg (palisade)
Augsburg
Zurich (palisade, monastery)
Defenses:
Italian Border (Wooden Forts)
Land Use:
66% Enfeoffed
14% Church Property
20% Ducal Demesne (profitability 100%)
Resources and Goods:
Demesne Income: 4,000 denarii
Corruption: 16%
Vassals: 330 knights, 900(990) sergeants
Standing Army:
Stuttgart Levy (Landgraf Welf von Stuttgart): 800 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 400 Light Archers (bow, cloth), 200 Poleaxe Guards (polearm, light)
Strassbourg Levy (Landgraf Sibold von Zalringen): 400 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 300 Angonmen (javelin, spear, shield, cloth)
Zurich Levy (Wildgraf Matto von der Schwarzwald): 200 Medium Swordsmen (sword, shield, light)
Italian Border Guard (Vizegraf Bernard von Thurgau): 100 Light Archers (bow, cloth)
Maximum Call-up: 500 men per turn
Army Upkeep: 2,400 denarii
Armory: Nothing

[Cyclotron]

By the way, you two know the usual NES players better than I - if you know any of them who might be around and willing, you might spread the word. I think I saw bipolarbear in the OT.

And, just to keep this fresh in case you can help me with any of these:

Originally posted by Cyclotron
But of course, what we really need are 3 more people...

I'm working on some of the "background info" and formulas that work behind the scenes. I also need a good map - is there a blank map of europe, specifically central/western Europe, that I could make use of?

If anybody has Colin McEvedy's excellent book "The Atlas of Medieval History" or whatever, I would also appreciate a scan of any pages relevent to the time period - I'm in Austria and my copy is in America.

Any maps or information about natural resources in the area would also be appreciated.

[Cyclotron]

Alright, I have a working map of the larger area - I used the Dark Ages map that appleciders used. It has most, if not all, of the states that have been noted in the strat guide, though no cities or other icons yet.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=8613_NES.PNG

EDIT: The uploader won't seem to give me a thumbnail, so you'll just have to download it to see it.

[foolish_icarus]

Keep fighting the good fight, Cyc. Mine own feeble efforts at recruiting shall continue, but more likely it will be only a stroke of luck that gives us our needed players.
By the way, if you found any good websites on this era while making this, would you mind posting the links?

[Cyclotron]

A shame about the lack of people. Maybe it was a mistake to have this move out of the Civ3-stories section...

As for sources, I must confess that 90% of my research hinges on written works - I have a small, but very interesting medieval collection at the institute I'm at in Vienna - and Wikipedia. The books help me understand the feudal system, and Wikipedia is second to none in providing the lineages and successions of historical rulers. There is no other possible way I would know who the king of Upper Burgundy was in 911 AD.

The rest of the web I use primarily for maps, and I probably wouldn't so much if I had my Colin McEvedy with me, as he is really the best thing to happen to Civ scenarios and historical state role-playing ever in the world of publishing.

I also use the web for random name generation for generals. This is one of the best for name info from any era (even a huge list of Aztec names!):

http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/

[foolish_icarus]

By the way, here are some maps to compare with your present sources, if you don't already know about them :

http://euratlas.com/summary.htm

[Tassadar500]

I've been really, really busy for the last few months, and I've had to almost completely stop 'Poly. I'd definitely be interested in this.

[Cyclotron]

Cool, Lord Nuke - all we need is one more to get it started.

Icarus, that's a great site - most of it I had already, but that's nearly as good as my McEvedy books. I'll definitly go over my map again.

It's important to note, however, that a lot can happen in 11 years - look at the full map of Europe on that site. By the time this game starts, Great Moravia has been annihilated by everyone's favorite Magyars, the Fatimids have arisen and pushed aside the Aghlabids, and the Vikings have gotten an independent kingdom in Normandy.

[Cyclotron]

A bit of an overall progress report for you -

It seems the only major thing that needs to get done is completion of the map and the computations of economy, military, etc. values for foreign powers. The framework of the NES has been established, and it will be playable soon.

My activities in Austria, however, prohibit me from completing the remaining work I have to do as quickly as I did the previous material. The school year here ends around the 20th, and I have final papers to write for all those classes. It additionally wouldn't be a good idea to start before then even if I could do so - around the 20th I'm leaving for Texas, and will be out of internet access - or at least, the kind of access I would need to update an NES - until the first week of January or so.

Once I get back from Texas, however, there should be no problems for some time. I will be able to mod both from home and once I'm at school.

The upshot is that starting this NES will have to wait for the next calendar year, which isn't actually that far off. Perhaps that will provide us some time to find one last player for the group.

I hope you are all three still willing to play in a month, because I will still be willing to mod.

[Micha]

I´m definately in then

[foolish_icarus]

of course

[Cyclotron]

With that taken care of, I'm going to be retiring from this for a while and taking care of the more mundane tasks I must accomplish. I will re-activate this in about a month. Until then, see if you can get another person... and hey, fight over which Duchy you want to be if you want.

The Complete Duchy Stat Listings:

Duchy of Franconia
Ruler: King Conrad I, Age 21
Wife: Kunigunde of Bavaria, Age 38
Children: None
Relations: Grandson of Emperor Arnulf of Carinthia (distaff, deceased), Stepfather of Duke Arnulf “the Bad” of Bavaria
Current Heir: Eberhard of Franconia (brother)
Treasury: 10,000 denarii
Total Income: 4,000 denarii
Troop Upkeep: 2,700 denarii
Loss from Raiding: 1,200 denarii (Magyars), 100 denarii (Bohemian Slavs)
Loss from Corruption: 480 denarii
Total Gain/Loss: -480 denarii

Territory: Duchy of Franconia
Size Rating: 100%
Principal Towns:
Frankfurt (court, armory, treasury, church, palisade)
Bamberg
Mainz (chapel, monastery)
Weinsberg (palisade)
Defenses:
None
Land Use:
62% Enfeoffed
18% Church Property
20% Ducal Demesne (profitability 100%)
Resources and Goods:
Demesne Income: 4,000 denarii
Corruption: 12%
Vassals: 310 knights, 800(930) sergeants
Standing Army:
Frankfurt Levy (Burggraf Reinhard von Fulda): 800 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 400 Light Archers (bow, cloth), 400 Medium Swordsmen (sword, shield, light)
Mainz Levy (Rhinegraf Gisfried von Ingelbeim): 300 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light)
Weinsberg Levy (Landgraf Hildebert von Weinzberg): 400 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 400 Angonmen (javelin, shield, spear, cloth)
Maximum Call-up: 500 men per turn
Army Upkeep: 2,700 denarii
Armory: Nothing

Duchy of Bavaria
Ruler: Duke Arnulf “the Bad,” Age 22
Wife: Judith of Friaul, Age 17
Children: Judith, Age 2
Relations: Grandson of Duke Berchard of Swabia (distaff)
Current Heir: Count Eberhard of Bavaria (father-in-law)
Treasury: 4,000 denarii
Total Income: 7,160 denarii
Troop Upkeep: 3,000 denarii
Loss from Raiding: 200 denarii (Magyars), 600 denarii (Bohemian Slavs)
Loss from Corruption: 1,540 denarii
Loss from Diplomacy: 400 denarii (tribute to Magyars)
Total Gain/Loss: +1,420 denarii

Territory: Duchy of Bavaria
Size Rating: 100%
Principal Towns:
Regensburg (court, armory, treasury, ring wall, church)
Passau (palisade, church)
Salzburg
Linz
Defenses:
None
Land Use:
65% Enfeoffed
8% Church Property
27% Ducal Demesne (profitability 100%)
Resources and Goods:
Demesne Income: 5,400 denarii
Corruption: 20%
Vassals: 325 knights, 550(975) sergeants
Standing Army:
Regensburg Levy (Burggraf Otto von Nordgau): 400 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 400 Light Archers (bow, cloth), 300 Angonmen (javelin, spear, shield, cloth)
Salzburg Levy (Vizegraf Magenhard von Linz): 500 Light Spearmen (spear, shield, cloth), 200 Medium Swordsmen (sword, shield, light)
Maximum Call-up: 500 men per turn
Army Upkeep: 1,800 denarii
Armory: Nothing

Territory: March of Carinthia
Size Rating: 40%
Principal Towns:
Eppenstein (palisade)
Defenses:
Magyar Border (Wooden Forts)
Land Use:
40% Enfeoffed
5% Church Property
55% Ducal Demesne (profitability 40%)
Resources and Goods:
Demesne Income: 1,760 denarii
Corruption: 26%
Vassals: 30(80) knights, 110(240) sergeants
Standing Army:
Eppenstein Levy (Markgraf Luitpold von Frelsing): 600 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light)
Magyar Border Guard: (Freiherr Visloff der Kroat) 200 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 400 Light Archers (bow, cloth)
Maxiumum Call-up: 200 men per turn
Army Upkeep: 1,200 denarii

Duchy of Swabia
Ruler: Duke Burchard, Age 46
Wife: Frederada of Swabia
Children: Burchard, Age 11
Relations: None of Interest
Current Heir: Erchanger of Swabia (brother)
Treasury: 10,000 denarii
Total Income: 4,000 denarii
Troop Upkeep: 2,400 denarii
Loss from Raiding: 1,300 denarii (Magyars)
Loss from Corruption: 640 denarii
Total Gain/Loss: -340 denarii

Territory: Duchy of Swabia
Size Rating: 100%
Principal Towns:
Stuttgart (court, treasury, armory, palisade, chapel)
Strassburg (palisade)
Augsburg
Zurich (palisade, monastery)
Defenses:
Italian Border (Wooden Forts)
Land Use:
66% Enfeoffed
14% Church Property
20% Ducal Demesne (profitability 100%)
Resources and Goods:
Demesne Income: 4,000 denarii
Corruption: 16%
Vassals: 330 knights, 900(990) sergeants
Standing Army:
Stuttgart Levy (Landgraf Welf von Stuttgart): 800 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 400 Light Archers (bow, cloth), 200 Poleaxe Guards (polearm, light)
Strassbourg Levy (Landgraf Sibold von Zalringen): 400 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light), 300 Angonmen (javelin, spear, shield, cloth)
Zurich Levy (Wildgraf Matto von der Schwarzwald): 200 Medium Swordsmen (sword, shield, light)
Italian Border Guard (Vizegraf Bernard von Thurgau): 100 Light Archers (bow, cloth)
Maximum Call-up: 500 men per turn
Army Upkeep: 2,400 denarii
Armory: Nothing

Duchy of Saxony
Ruler: Duke Otto “the Illustrious,” Age 62
Wife: Hedwiga, Age 59
Children: Henry, Age 35
Relations: Great-grandson-in-law of Charlemagne (deceased)
Current Heir: Henry (son)
Treasury: 5,000 denarii
Total Income: 4,840 denarii
Troop Upkeep: 2,100 denarii
Loss from Raiding: 800 denarii (Danish Vikings), 600 denarii (Thuringian Slavs)
Loss from Corruption: 730 denarii
Total Gain/Loss: +610 denarii

Territory: Duchy of Saxony
Size Rating: 110%
Principal Towns:
Bremen (court, treasury, armory, church, palisade)
Minden (palisade)
Magdeburg (chapel, ring wall)
Hamburg (monastery)
Münster
Defenses:
None
Land Use:
60% Enfeoffed
18% Church Property
22% Ducal Demesne (profitability 100%)
Resources and Goods:
Demesne Income: 4,840 denarii
Corruption: 15%
Vassals: 300(330) knights, 650(990) sergeants
Standing Army:
Bremen Levy (Burggraf Friedrich von Verden): 800 Medium Swordsmen (sword, shield, light), 400 Light Archers (bow, cloth)
Magdeburg Levy (Markgraf Burgund von Magdeburg): 300 Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light)
Hamburg Levy (Vizegraf Gunter von Holstein): 400 Saxon Raiders (polearm, sword, shield, light), 200 Angonmen (javelin, spear, shield, cloth)
Münster Levy: (Freiherr Heidolf von Dortmund) 300 Light Spearmen (spear, shield, cloth)
Maximum Call-up: 550 men per turn
Army Upkeep: 2,100 denarii
Armory: Nothing

Note that this isn't the final version, so these will change, but you get the general idea. And don't let Bavaria's two territories fool you - the March of Carinthia is economically worthless without some development, and Bavaria starts out in quite a diplomatic and military pickle. All the duchies have their own strengths and weaknesses based on their starting situation - I would recommend Swabia or Franconia for players a bit more focused on diplomatic conniving, and Bavaria and Saxony for a bit more military action - but I promise there will be plenty of both no matter who you play.