The Pacific Project

[Stefan Härtel]

Hi there. I wasn't very active lately, because of school matters. Also, I couldn't load Apolyton properly, and I daresay that the fact I could load it now is plain good luck.
I haven't forgotten my projects about German-East Africa nor about the Pacific Ocean however. I will resume the East Africa project once I get to read Von Vorbeck's book 'Heia Safari!' (I saw it at a truly wonderful bookshop in Bonn as an orginal release from 1920, but for some reason, I couldn't afford it for 20 € at that time).
I've carried together (almost) every piece of information about the history of the Polynesian, Melanesian and Micronesian cultures in the Pacific Room I could find from every piece of literature I have got, and every website I could find. The only thing standing out is to see what Capt. James Cook has to offer.
The idea is a naval based empire-building scenario including the above-mentioned tribes and the Maori as sepparate civilizations, and perhaps some Europeans as well. The player will cruise between some tiny islands to seek new settling grounds, which will be a hard task.
Now, I need your help. I need virtually every fact about naval units and AI in Civ2. Could we try to carry everything together so the AI will behave properly to make the game enjoyable?
Another question is, how large an island must be so that the AI will found a city on it.
I don't really have the time to try all this out by myself, so I'd be grateful for every bit of help you can give me.

Peace

[Exile]

No idea if it'll be any help, but . . .

There is a similar thread over on the Civfanatics site. Kindal (J. M. Fernandez) asked virtually the same question about naval AI behavior and did garner some responses. You might take a look at that.

Sounds to me like someone is thinking about entering a scenario in the AGE OF SAIL SDC #4

[MagyarCrusader]

Welcome back Stefan!

[Soundwave]

If you need help with NZ history come to me, coz i've studied it for 7years... and i live there!

[Shaka Naldur]

download "Pit´s war at sea" and "Cruel Sea"

the best naval scenarios out there IMHO

[WarVoid]

The Maori called New Zealand Aotearoea and Chatham Island Aotea, IIRC. The majority of Maori are located in the modern province of Gisborne, thusly that would be an ideal starting location for them.

The Civ2 naval AI is funny, sometimes it'll function great, other times it won't...

[Prometeus]

For hawaian pics, serach for Herb Kane. there is a lot of stuff of his own on the NET.

To all the Nezzies: where can i found a nice site about "pa", the fortified Maori centers?

Stefan, i tHink you'll find this stuff useful: it's a collection of indonesian, melanesian and polinesian national dresses .

[The Apologist]

Originally posted by Prometeus
To all the Nezzies: where can i found a nice site about "pa", the fortified Maori centers?

"Nezzies"?

Well. Without knowing if I fit into the category or not, I suggest looking at:

http://www.newzealandwars.co.nz/index.html

It should cover everything you want to know.

Also, for what it's worth, I was recently scolded for using the name "Aoteroa" for New Zealand - I'm reliably informed that it's just the Maori word for the North Island (aka New Ulster), the South Island (aka New Munster) would be Te Wai Pounamu, Stewart Island would be Rakiura, and the Chathams, Reikohu.

[Soundwave]

Originally posted by WarVoid
The Maori called New Zealand Aotearoea and Chatham Island Aotea, IIRC. The majority of Maori are located in the modern province of Gisborne, thusly that would be an ideal starting location for them.

The Civ2 naval AI is funny, sometimes it'll function great, other times it won't...

That snot true at all i live in the country and the Maroi's did not start in Gisborne, and they live all over the country, there is no one 'maroi' there are all different tribes... its like scotland, but sometimes more voilent.

There were even maroi in the sth island and north island, there were none in chatham is, they were the mori mori.

[Soundwave]

Originally posted by The Apologist

Also, for what it's worth, I was recently scolded for using the name "Aoteroa" for New Zealand - I'm reliably informed that it's just the Maori word for the North Island (aka New Ulster), the South Island (aka New Munster) would be Te Wai Pounamu, Stewart Island would be Rakiura, and the Chathams, Reikohu.

For the people that dont live in New Zealand shhh!!!, The New Zealand wars were not one but many right from the discovery of nz to the about 1914. Also in New Zealand we use Aoteroa, it describes both 3 islands, not the Chathams.

Look guys if you wanna now the Facts e-mail me, or catch me on msn, coz you are describing things that you have not been learnt i think. And i have been thought it for 7 years. And majored in it.

Another thing its anzac day today and i would like to say to all new zealanders and aussies, god bless the men that fell in battle. For you gave your today for our tomorrow.

[Stefan Härtel]

Well, to give you an idea of how I was thinking of it game-wise...
Each 'native' civ starts out with one island under their possession, and the goal is to expand (duh!). I don't know how well this would actually work in a single-player game, but I'd do my best to make it playable. It'll propably be well-suited for any kind of MP game.
I was originally thinking about letting the Maori start in canoes, but that would have been a huge disadvantage, especially when played by the AI.
What I really need to know is where the very first (even if mythical) landing site of the Maori was. Otherwise I'd let them start at Parengarenga, because that is northernmost and allows most exploration of NZ.
What exactly is the "Pa"? Is it more a fortress or more of a (fortified?) city?
Another big question is wether or not I should include Australia and the Aboriginies. The problem is that their culture is really hard to depict in the limitations of Civ2.
A further one is if the Papua should play a role, or if I should include New Guinea at all, because somehow, it's not really the same as all the tiny south sea cultures.

...it's allright, ma, it's life and life only...

[WarVoid]

I once did a scenario for pirates where the civ started out with no cities but had their settler on a privateer way out in the ocean and a musketeer and explorer unit.

After saving the scen, the game crashed... So I don't recommend trying it...

Although if you hit the ignore button about three hundred times it'll still work.

[Shaka Naldur]

After saving the scen, the game crashed... So I don't recommend trying it...

so an scenario must start with cities??
i´ve save a few games in the 4000bc as scenarios where any city was build and nothing happened

[WarVoid]

If you start a scen with the AI civs' single settler unit (the one you get at the start of the game) out on the ocean, in a ship, you will get an error promt and the game will crash. In Win95 you can just hit the ignore button like ten times and it'll skip it. Dunno about in Win98 and XP.

This problem DOES NOT occur in saved games, only scenarios. But then again, you can't place an AI's settler on water, in a ship, unless you cheat and make it into a scenario. So the point is moot.

[The Apologist]

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
I was originally thinking about letting the Maori start in canoes, but that would have been a huge disadvantage, especially when played by the AI.

I don't know if this is appropriate or not - it depends on when your scenario starts, and what you define as a civilisation. I'd be happy to look up the historical situation if you provide a starting date.

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
What exactly is the "Pa"? Is it more a fortress or more of a (fortified?) city?

It's a difficult question to accurately answer - the Pa system that gave the British so much difficulty in the New Zealand Wars would be most simply described as a temporary fortification, normally used as a base for raiding. Very sophisticated strategic thinking involved - the Maori were the one people to beat the British without the advantage of numbers (indeed, at times fighting at odds of 3:1 or worse). Whether this needs to be covered in your scen. is a judgement call - I'd think not, unless you intend to include European colonisation.

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
Another big question is wether or not I should include Australia and the Aboriginies. The problem is that their culture is really hard to depict in the limitations of Civ2.
A further one is if the Papua should play a role, or if I should include New Guinea at all, because somehow, it's not really the same as all the tiny south sea cultures.

Perhaps include them as barbarians to slow up the spread of our intrepid seafarers, without putting the larger landmasses strictly off-limits?