Presenting: 'The Cruel Sea'

[Cal]

I'd miss the saboteurs. Without them, the only thing the land-locked cities can build are aircraft.

If you take them out, remember to change the Type IX's carrying ability to none.

[Case]

Paul, I'm planning on replacing them with an American heavy cruiser.
While the Sabetours do add a bit of variety, I've never been able to find any real use for them.

[frunobulax]

Cruel Sea / Scapa Flow

This is just a nitpicky note to say you spelt "Scarpa Flow" (98,28) wrong (surely?); it's Scapa Flow isn't it... as with http://www.scapaflow.co.uk/

Anyway, I've been playing Cruel Sea all weekend an am enjoying it immensely, although it took several hours to convert it to Mac format (yep, another mac user here!) The most fiddly thing was redoing the score sheet for my Mac's version of Excel, but it works fine...

A couple of other points...

1. I agree about Saboteurs, I wouldn't miss them... they're not that useful.

2. Is there a way of automatically destroying/removing the German Baltic Sea mines, the ones that get relocated to port once Germany goes to war with the Soviets... the temptation to disband them in Oslo or Konigsberg is just too great (5+ new Bismarck class battleships... yes please !) Or could they be relocated to protect these ports....?

3. Re. freighters, liners & tankers... since the Allies seem to be blockading the west coast of France from Brest to Bordeaux with, mainly, freighters, is there some way of giving them 'goto' commands (via events file??) so they plough a more sensible route back & forth across the Atlantic. I mean it's great for me, just picking them off 3-4 at a time using my VII and IX sub. fleet out of Brest, but seems far too easy...

4. Why not have 2 or 3 dedicated units for the English and the Germans... ? e.g. the Hood, or Royal Oak, plus the Bismarck itself and/or U-47 ? It would be fun to re-enact Lieutenant Günther Prien's U-47 U-boat raid on Scapa Flow, of October 13th 1939, and go after the Royal Oak..! Obviously there's not a lot of room on the units file, and it would mean losing some units... you could do away with the German's Patrol Boat and Type II U-boats for a start, as they seem largely redundant to me ! Sinking these special units could also bring extra benefits...

Aside from this it's great ! I'm only up to July 1941, with 682 points, and only lost 5 subs so far, nothing else... but I'm being cautious... just sent my first Bismarck+Carrier battlegroup North of Sca(r)pa Flow via Bergen after a King Geo. V....

[Case]

Re: Cruel Sea / Scapa Flow

Frunobulax, thanks for those comments. I'm glad you enjoyed the scenario

Originally posted by frunobulax
This is just a nitpicky note to say you spelt "Scarpa Flow" (98,28) wrong (surely?); it's Scapa Flow isn't it... as with http://www.scapaflow.co.uk/

oops

Originally posted by frunobulax

2. Is there a way of automatically destroying/removing the German Baltic Sea mines, the ones that get relocated to port once Germany goes to war with the Soviets... the temptation to disband them in Oslo or Konigsberg is just too great (5+ new Bismarck class battleships... yes please !) Or could they be relocated to protect these ports....?

I have fixed this for the upcoming Version 2.0 by setting the Germans at peace with the Soviets instead of being allied

Originally posted by frunobulax

3. Re. freighters, liners & tankers... since the Allies seem to be blockading the west coast of France from Brest to Bordeaux with, mainly, freighters, is there some way of giving them 'goto' commands (via events file??) so they plough a more sensible route back & forth across the Atlantic. I mean it's great for me, just picking them off 3-4 at a time using my VII and IX sub. fleet out of Brest, but seems far too easy...

I don't really have any spare space in the events file to do this, and I'm heard that 'goto's' don't work
I state in the reame that lurking on mines is against the house rules though

Originally posted by frunobulax

4. Why not have 2 or 3 dedicated units for the English and the Germans... ? e.g. the Hood, or Royal Oak, plus the Bismarck itself and/or U-47 ? It would be fun to re-enact Lieutenant Günther Prien's U-47 U-boat raid on Scapa Flow, of October 13th 1939, and go after the Royal Oak..! Obviously there's not a lot of room on the units file, and it would mean losing some units... you could do away with the German's Patrol Boat and Type II U-boats for a start, as they seem largely redundant to me ! Sinking these special units could also bring extra benefits...

I'm considering this for the update, but I don't think there's room in the units or events to support it. Anyway, this scenario begins in mid 1940, well after the raid on Scapa Flow( though well before the hunt for the Bismark...)

[frunobulax]

Hi Case,

thanks for your reply to the various comments I made... I take your point about extra 'dedicated' units (e.g. Royal Oak) and there being no space on the units file. Since I posted that original message I must admit that my Type II Subs have actually proven a little useful, taking out the odd Soviet patrol boat in the Black Sea and off the Norwegian coast...

Speaking of subs, how come you don't allow any points for sinking them? My U-boats have sunk about 5-6 so far (British, US and Soviet).

Anyway, I'm up to March '42 and since the US joined in my monthly kills vs. losses ratio has dropped into the negative, and I lost my first big unit (a Scharnhorst class, sunk off Newfoundland). Still, I have a score of 1348, and I just successfully attacked New York

Oh, and by the way, I haven't been positioning my ships on top of mines as you alluded to , they've just been running in and out of port to take out tankers !

Anyway, enough waffle !

[Scott F]

Instead of adding more allied units, why don't you use the slot for the planned but never built German H-class super battleships?

[Case]

Originally posted by Scott F
Instead of adding more allied units, why don't you use the slot for the planned but never built German H-class super battleships?

Good idea! I'll put it late in the tech tree, so players have to choose between Elektro Boats and H Class ships

[Scott F]

Are the aerial mines really necessary? Or having separate fortification units for inland and coastal cities? If they aren't really necessary, you can free up another space or two for more units Of what, exactly, I have no real idea, though a follow-on super raider battlecruiser was planned by the Germans before 1940. The Italians could get a special unique battleship, or the French, or the British could get the Rodneys (slow but powerful).

It might be nice to have some more special targets (perhaps the Queen Mary or something). The Germans used to shell British coastal towns in WW1 to harass the British. I am not sure if they followed the same policy before that or not. Some sort of regenerating town unit could be placed along the eastern English coast.

Also, perhaps you can make the Italians more of an active civilization, and allow the German player to do a hotseat game as both the Germans and the Italians (maybe even the Vichy French too, for a time). That would enable interesting aspects of the war in the Mediterranean, maybe even some sort of requirement to convoy supplies to North Africa to support Rommel there.

I haven't played the game the whole way through, but you might consider destroying German cities through change terrain events as the Russians and Allies drive back the Germans. The only downside of that would be that units that are home citied in France or the east would be lost as the cities are destroyed. Italian and French cities could similarly be wiped out.

[Case]

Originally posted by Scott F
Are the aerial mines really necessary? Or having separate fortification units for inland and coastal cities?

Yes and no. I'm thinking of ways to expand the role of mines (and especially the huge mine-sweeping effort the German Navy had to adopt).
I'm going to replace the 'coastal fortress' with an Italian Submarine.

Originally posted by Scott F
Also, perhaps you can make the Italians more of an active civilization, and allow the German player to do a hotseat game as both the Germans and the Italians (maybe even the Vichy French too, for a time). That would enable interesting aspects of the war in the Mediterranean, maybe even some sort of requirement to convoy supplies to North Africa to support Rommel there.

mmm, I'll consider that. I do want to keep the scenario focused on the 'Battle of the Atlantic' though.

Originally posted by Scott F
I haven't played the game the whole way through, but you might consider destroying German cities through change terrain events as the Russians and Allies drive back the Germans. The only downside of that would be that units that are home citied in France or the east would be lost as the cities are destroyed. Italian and French cities could similarly be wiped out.

I've already (sort of) included this. The scenario ends in June '44, before the Germans started losing cities, and the Italian civ gets destroyed in 1943 when historically Italy surrendered, and the Italian fleet sailed to Malta.
I did consider destroying Hamburg after the firestorm the Alies launched on it in '43, but when I did my research I discovered that only a months production was lost as a result of the bombing!

[Case]

BTW, here's that picture of a crying dog

[HisMajestyBOB]

$.02 and a big bump

My 2 (two) cents for Cruel Sea + CS 2.0:

1. Brits and US should be Allied, not at peace. In my first game they attacked each other in 1942!
2. Russia shouldn't build Battleships, just old BB. And no Heavy Cruisers.
3. More Liners. I saw about 2 in my last game.
4. More Japanese subs. Maybe have a rndturn chance of 1/20 or so.
5. Use move unit to move units from Bay of Biscay and western Britian to near NYC or DC. Then use it to move units from the US east coast to England. This way the ships will travel the Atlantic. You could also move units from Africa or the Pacific, but its not really important.
6. Get rid of some of the coastal neutral and french cities near gibralter: they build ships that clog up the straits
7. Less invincible mines in the Med, please!
8. Give the Schnorcal text the 'Justonce' line so it doesn't pop up every turn.
9. Make ASW tactics do something.

Love your scenarios, and I want Cruel Sea 2.0 and that Aulstralia scen. almost as much as Civ3!

[Case]

Re: $.02 and a big bump

Thanks for those comments Bob, here are my responces.

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
1. Brits and US should be Allied, not at peace. In my first game they attacked each other in 1942!

If I set them as Allied then the US enters the war in the first turn In my many hours of building and testing this scenario, I've never actually seen the US and Britain go to war so I guess it's rare.
I'll put a note in V 2.0's readme telling people to use the cheat menu to set them at peace should this happen. - Does anyone have a better solution?

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
2. Russia shouldn't build Battleships, just old BB. And no Heavy Cruisers.
3. More Liners. I saw about 2 in my last game.

Yep, fixed

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
4. More Japanese subs. Maybe have a rndturn chance of 1/20 or so.

I've dropped Japanese subs - they didn't really do much, and I needed that unit space.

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
5. Use move unit to move units from Bay of Biscay and western Britian to near NYC or DC. Then use it to move units from the US east coast to England. This way the ships will travel the Atlantic. You could also move units from Africa or the Pacific, but its not really important.

If I go with two events files I'll try this. Has anyone got any tips on getting move unit events to work?

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
6. Get rid of some of the coastal neutral and french cities near gibralter: they build ships that clog up the straits
7. Less invincible mines in the Med, please!

I want to keep the Med a minor theartre, but I'll definetly fix the problem with the Straits of Gibraltar

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
8. Give the Schnorcal text the 'Justonce' line so it doesn't pop up every turn.

oops

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
9. Make ASW tactics do something.

Done - the tech tree is going to be more complex.

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
Love your scenarios, and I want Cruel Sea 2.0 and that Aulstralia scen. almost as much as Civ3!

*blushes*

[Jimmywax]

Re: Re: $.02 and a big bump

Originally posted by Case
If I go with two events files I'll try this. Has anyone got any tips on getting move unit events to work?
:

All I can say is to look at 'RED FRONT'.

[our_man]

Case, I downloaded a document on Alex's site when it was still working concerning move unit events which I think was written by Nemo. You might still be able to get it off his site (it works for a few people still) or if you can't I could send it to you.

[Case]

our_man, I can't get the site to work, so could you please send it to me? ( nick_dowling@hotmail.com ) Thanks