New scenario: Greek war of independence 1821-1832

[Heresson]

Yes, that's exactly what I ment. Fustaneles... hm. No wonder Greece couldn't win the final war against Turkey. Turks could take their army for a horde of ballet-dancers and start chasing them....

By the way, I've heard that during the war, the king moved to Smyrna. Was it pernament, a step further to C-ple, or just in order to be closer to the front?

[Heresson]

No offence, of course

[Varwnos]

First of all, no i am not taking any offence, i certainly trust that you have said that without meaning anything offensive, but moreover the problem is with the person who is trying to be offensive, and never with the person who is listening to something, unless he becomes offended

secondly: you are talking about the 1920-1922 war. It wasnt exactly a defeat, up to 1922 the greek army just advanced everywhere without meating any serius resitence, or crushing it, as in northern asia minor in 1921. In 1922 what happened was that elections took place, and to the general surprise pm Venizelos lost. That meant that now the King (i think it was Constantine) who had a vendetta against Venizelos since 1913, replaced all of the army heads with royal generals, who hadnt seen any war action since the balcan wars. This lead to very poor strategic planning, and finally the order to retreat. However the greek army never lost any battle in that war, it was all down to disastrous politics by the palace.
Ironically what caused all that was the previus king's sudden death. Rumour has it that he was bitten by a monkey (!). Pm Churchill wrote that "never before had the bite of a monkey caused 2 million people to exit from asia minor) (meaning the exodus of greeks that took place in 1922).

All this doesnt mean very much now, history keeps going forward, who knows, perhaps in another 100 years greece + turkey will be one nation The important thing isnt to have a huge country, but to have a country full of good and loving people. And that no nation can boast of sadly.

back to the scenario: what do you think of the new walls i made?

ps Thanks Gerry for your comments about the walls

[Palaiologos]

We lost many battles in that war, varwnos.

When the Turkish counter attack was launched at Afion Kara hisar and Eski Sehir, the Greek forces were sent reeling.

and later the whole 1st Army Corps(or remnants of) surrendered at Ali Veran-the greatest defeat of a Greek army to this day.

And the origins of defeat lay in the original plans made by Venizelos. He neglected to fortify Smyrna and the major population centers, declared elections!!!! in the middle of a war, and placed too much trust in his English budies(lets not forget that the Anglo-French forces invaded Athens in order to put Mr Venizelos in power in exchange for Greece's entry to the WW1).

[Varwnos]

progress report

made new unit "lord byron" (from editing beyond any recognition gb's lorence of arabia unit) also picked one of gb's english soldiers units for my "byronic guard" unit

you can see both in the pic

to Palaiologos: thats all in the past, besides look at where england was before ww2 and where it is now. No empire lasts for ever, and Greece probably was the most powerful empire for far more centuries than any other, it was time we took a break

[Palaiologos]

Nothing lasts forever, but it really would be something if we had succeeded in anexing Anatolia.

We propably would have a Mediterranean Empire now.

Ahhh......chances lost.

[Varwnos]

This doesnt mean anything, Palaiologos, the usa is the strongest country around, but there certainly are people in africa's poorest countries who are kinder/happier and in some cases even better educated than some in the usa. Same goes for Greece, Turkey, England etc. If a person isnt happy/good then his country's size wont help him anyway.
Imagining that if Greece now had a large part of asia minor and/or Constantinople would have meant that your life would be a lot better is i think an illusion. We mostly are what we think.

I think that we shouldnt be so off-topic though, this is a thread about a game, not about the 1920-22 campaign

[tanelorn]

My units.gif from that attempt, ðáôñéäá!

My units come with a "T" logo, these are among my first units ever. BB are BeBro's, GB fairlines. The Napoleonic foot are by a Pat?. Most of the ships, the settle/engineer and trade units are Arne's. Those I dubbed erw are Erwan's. These came unmarked. So did some units from Carolus Invictinimmus scenario, I think. Its been so long I lost track of origins, sorry.

I didn't release it for personal reasons, but you can use them instead.

Descriptions: settler, engineer, Gen. Makrygianis, Armatoloi, late war greek tactical line infantry, Markos Mpotsaris, Petrobeis Mauromichalis?, Souliotes (crack guerilla fighters), Kleftes (guerilla fightes), Theodoros Kolokotronis, Nisiotes (Islanders), Cretans, Holy company (Philiki etairia), Karaiskakis, Askaris (turkish irregular foot, there is a better name for them, I forget- the majority of the turkish forces, a pittiful unruly armed mob), Turkalbanians- guerilla tactics (and Christian arvanites), Turkish regulars (Azabs was it?), Fairline's Janissaries (crack regular troops), Turkish late war tacticals (Nijamis, Nijami-i-Jedid), Turkish light cavalry (Gazi/Akinjis), Turkish medium cavalry (Sipahis), Turkish shock cavalry (Suvarilleri, Suvaris). Pasha Dramalis, Turkish corsairs, Egyptian regular cavalry, French line infantry, French Dragoons, English line infantry, English grenadiers, French grenadiers, several ship types, the last two are the joint holy alliance fleet at Navarino and a greek fireship (pyrpoliko- "kamicazee" boats, also used by some Greek captains in Latin America vs Imperial Spain), old brass gun, field piece and light piece- I'll have to check which pdr-, Ibrahim Pasha, Kjutahi Pasha, Omer Vryones, Turkish merchant, Greek merchant, Admiral Miaoulis, Admiral Kanaris (Nazi Von Kanaris supposedly claimed descent from ) fleet comanderess Bouboulina, pirate ship, philellines (pro-greek volunteer force from Europe and beyond), Reverant Papaflessas,??, Ypsilantis, Turkalbanian Ali Pasha, Turkish Admiral what's-his-name-again (Hursit Pasha?), fort, Ali Pasha's crack Albanian guard.

More or less...

Apolyton is playing tricks on me

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by varwnos
This doesnt mean anything, Palaiologos, the usa is the strongest country around, but there certainly are people in africa's poorest countries who are kinder/happier and in some cases even better educated than some in the usa.

???
The average American at least knows how to read and write.
And i bet that the average American is happier than the average negro too.

Same goes for Greece, Turkey, England etc. If a person isnt happy/good then his country's size wont help him anyway.

A bigger country, means a richer country and consequently a better quality of life for its citizens.

Imagining that if Greece now had a large part of asia minor and/or Constantinople would have meant that your life would be a lot better is i think an illusion. We mostly are what we think.

Well MY life wouldn't be any better i am certain. But i am equally certain that my grandmother's life would be better-she wouldn't have been forced to leave her home in Smyrna.
And her relatives wouldn't have died in the war.

BTW if you want to use any of my units as well you are free to do so.

[Varwnos]

To Palaiologos: thank you, there are some very nice units there, good work!

To Tanelorn: some of your units really rule! the priest unit (i suspect its Palaion Patron?) i will certainly use

i edited my units: please take a look, and tell me what you think Tanelorn & Palaiologos (and everyone else ofcourse)

-created new units:

1) lord byron
2) macedonian greek
3) epirotan greek

[tanelorn]

As for 1821 quality of troops, tactics etc. I think that the decisive factor was the Greek control of the sea, that was largely uncallenged, and left the Turks to fight cut off from their power base in Asia Minor. Also important were
a) the holy company campaign in the Moldavian/Wallachian hegemonies by Ypsilantes, and Ali pasha's secessionist campaign in Epirus, that diverted the turks early in the war. Some other Pashas were not that cooperative with the High Porte early on.
b) the rugged terrain of the Greek lands that denied the use of massed cavalry, and relegated artilliery to static roles (siege and defence), and promoted hit and run guerilla tactics used by us Greeks. 400 years of endless insurrection made us experts. Setbacks came typically when ingenious military commanders staged pitched battles with a force of irregulars. So a civ terrain of Greece should be mountains, hills, forests and scrubland, to depict this reality.
c) The state of that era's turkish military, that with the exeption of Janissaries and Suvaris and some elite artillery units was a disorganised mob of thugs, each with its own agenda and relied mostly on numbers, attrition and savagery against civilians.
d) The internal clashes within the Ottoman establishment, the entrenched dysfunctional bureaucracies, conservationism, backwardness and general impotence to do anything which meant reliance on us Greeks to keep everything going, more or less.

[Varwnos]

hey tanelorn

did you take a look at my units? certainly they dont look as amazing as yours (i am just a newbie creator) but i think that they are ok. Do say what you think of them though

ps: is it ok if i use ALL of the shields of your units, with my own? (it goes without saying that your name will be in the text file) i also plan to use one or two of your units, probably Palaion Patron and Ali Pasha.

-The revolution in the Hegemonies will be depicted through events

-same goes for the revolution in Crete

-hm, good point about the terrain, do you suggest that i fill it up with hills?

looking forward to your reply (still awake at this hour i see)

[tanelorn]

Êáé ôï ñùôáò; Ðáñå ïôé èåëåéò, ìáãêá ìïõ, ãé áõôï ôá óåñâéñåé ôï êáôáóôçìá
Ôï áöåíôéêï ôñåëëáèçêå! Ðááñå, ðáñå, ðáñå ïëá ôá óöáæù, ïëá ôá ìá÷áéñùíù! Units ìå ôç ìá÷áéñá, units ìå ôç âïõëá!

[Palaiologos]

I checked your units, my fellow macedonian.

My sincere opinion:
I have definetely seen better. BUT for some strange reason i think they are very fitting for the scenario.

Along with your walls they give a very 1821 feeling. Your style reminds me of Greek paintings of the era. Which is what i think you were trying to immitate.
Continue that way!

[Varwnos]

To Talenorn:

Åõ÷áñéóôþ

alla pes kai tipote gia auta pou eftiaksa egw, akoma kai arnhtiko- an einai arnhtiko pes to sta ellhnika- oxi ok


To Palaiologos:

thank you yes, my units are childish & cute, like me!