The greatest most detailed scenario in the history of scenarios...

[Hendrik the Great]

Any tech with no, no as its prerequisits can neither be traded, stoled or researched. To make absolutely sure give it an AI value of 0.

------------------
Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.nbci.com/thalys

[The Capo]

Thanks guys that worked.

Dutch guy! Tell your freakin Parliament to stop being so damned complicated, this report on the Dutch government is a *****!

------------------
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[KhanMan]

Capo-Be glad you didn't have to write it on the German parliment...that would give even the most politically inclined nightmares...

Will your report be availible in Dutch?



-KhanMan the eternal Mepp(en)er

[The Capo]

Well the letters are the ones the Dutch use....

------------------
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[KhanMan]

You mean like those col-double-letters?

aa, jj, kk, and ee? COOL!



-KhanMan the lord Mepper

[The Capo]

No, the ones that go a, b, c, d, e, f, g and so on and so forth, those.

Anyway this is a tough ass scenario to make here. So everyone better give me props, it lasts approximatley three hundred or so turns, and begins with the Bohemian revolution in Prague. There is a scenario available already by I believe Jesus Munoz, I of course apologize if the last name is incorrect.

You can download that scenario, which captures the basic historionics of mine. The main differances between our scenarios is that in his the Protestant states start out with a great deal of autonomy and power, while the Habsburgs are generally split apart and nearly non-existant (as the Habsuburgs anyways).

Therefore, there may be a change in format. Originally, the situation was one where your main units were already there, such as your Pikemen, your Infantry, and your Cavalry. However things weren't so cut and dry, and since the war spanned thirty years, the main component was the eventual rise of the musket over the conventional "swashbuckling" that was around in the era. I have a wide array of artillery from your general cannon, to your siege cannon, to your field artillery, to your heavy artillery, which was present during the 1640s, but not during the 1620s which began the conflict.

Another main problem I had with Jesus' scenario was that the Swedes were generally treated as second class in stance to the Germans, in reality the Germans were hardly a nation, and their "victory" which is to be achieved in the scenario was non existant.

In reality, the end of the war did not result in a loss by Spain/Habsburgs, but ended in them merely conceding power to the German Princes. The Swedes were victorious in the Baltic region and northern Poland. The problem with Jesus' scenario is that while the Habsburgs were a major player in the war, their role is downplayed drastically. Further, Great Britain, which is very unadequatley represented by an "Independant" (barbarian) monicker. Finally, he has in his scenario the prescence of formal "Knights" okay, yes there were knighted soldiers during the war, and in paintings princes and others are depicted in Feudal armor, but there were not any knights in the sense of the word in the era. It was stupid for anyone to dress in such slow paced, and retarding armor while everyone else was shooting eachother and running around haphazardly, anyone in this outdated armor was quick to be killed.

I have decided that I am going to change my original format from no tech advances to a large number of tech advances, keeping the original soldiering intact. There will be seperate scenarios each of them titled appropriatley.....

"The war for the Baltics" - Swedish/Danish scenario. Covers battles fought with Germany and Poland over power in the Baltics. (Other thirty year war nations are also present)

"Fall of an Empire" - Habsburg, attempts to keep empire from crumbling to France, Turkey, and of course the Protestants.

"The Price of Power" - French, Louise nearly denounces his Catholic faith in order to take advantage of the Habsburg position, the French make a bid for power by allying with their natural enemy in Germany, and their near enemies the Swedes.

Etc.

------------------
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[techumseh]

Sorry Capo, but you're wrong on a number of points. I did some research for a 30 Years War scenario a few years ago, and though I never released it, I generally agree with Jesus' approach. First, the heavy cavalry of the day often wore plate armour, as did the knights of a couple of centuries earlier. They were vulnerable to muskets protected by pikes as you suggest, but they did exist.

Why are you including Britain at all? It played no role in this war, and in fact was involved in it's own civil war for much of the time. Jesus got it right.

Many of the minor national units you propose had little or no bearing on the Thirty Years War. Irish, Greeks and Portugese are irrelevant. The Israelis simply didn't exist.

The Swedes were much more successful than you give them credit for. Gustavus Adolphus swept all the way into Bavaria and had to be starved out by the scorched earth tactics of Wallenstein (by far more important to the Hapsburgs than Tilly), before being killed at the battle of Lutzen in 1632. The Swedish army had continued, though reduced, success under the commanders succeding Gustavus.

Lastly, the Austrian Hapsburgs were very dependent on the troops of the Spanish Hapsburgs and the Bavarians. To quote the West Point history, 'The Dawn of Modern Warfare': "Vienna was a capital in name only. Its fall would not have ended the war - indeed, its would have had only very slight political impact. Ferdinand's power base was not Austria, but the Catholic states along the upper Danube and the Rhine. Bavaria, for instance, had provided the bulk of his soldiers."
Again, Jesus got it right.

[KhanMan]

While I do not agree with one side or another on the majority of the different points, I must strongly protest the idea that either scenario might be better, or "have it right". There is more than enough room for two or twenty 30-years-wars scenarios.

This is similar to the WW2 theater, where the well crafted work of many great scenario artists (ex. Red Front, Second Front, 2148 Days of War, East Rain, the upcoming Mega WW 2 Scenarios).

Personally, I loved Jesus' take on this war, AND I look forward to Capo's with great interest. I don't believe that liking one view of a war excludes liking others.

As such, I thank both Jesus Mundoz and Capo for their work and additions to the scenario world.

-KhanMan of Sayen

[The Capo]

To retort what you said, Jesus did not have it right in regards to Britain. To make the independant is ridiculous, because Britain's struggles were very much a part of this war. And to show this they are in the game and there is huge amounts of civil strife in the isles as I have mentioned before, I think it is a disservice to history to make them some faceless empire that has no problems at all.

In my version, they have all sorts of problems to deal with, which is realistic.

And as a counter opinion to your coments about Vienna, I don't believe I ever said its fall would result in the fall of the Habsburgs. I simply said that as the entire Habsburg realm was at war with the protestant rebels it would only make sense to make them one.

Using your logic, we should remove Spain from the WW2 scenario and put the Americans in, splitting Britain and the US into two civs. That would be stupid, becuase it is a waste of time, when someone could opt to play as Britain.

Further, yeah there were no Israelis becuase there was no Israel, but I meant Israeli in the sense that they are Jewish dissidents, not people from Israel. And you think the Greeks were of no consequence? Ask any Greek how the Greeks treated their Turkish oppressors, I believe you have a tad too much "military" history under your belt. They tend to forget minor conflicts and the human side of things.

And as for your plate armor, yes they did wear it, but I didn't say they were devoid of armor. They were dressed more like the conquistadors of the 1400s than they were like the knights of the mideval times, and in Jesus scenario there is a lack of straight cavalry, not everyone was a knight, and usually only one or two members of the royal family were in such regalia, so again you are incorrect.

You probably got this notion from artwork, which was very much propoganda, it is more glorious to see someone in knighted armor, than in tattered rags and simple brestplates, no?

Same with back then, they wanted to shed their subjects in a positive light, and since the subjects were usually royalty or high ranking military officials they were rich, and wore such armory. To think that some simple German garrison of troops were armed to the teeth is ludicrous.

And as for your Swedish thing, where did I ever say they were weak or unsuccessful?

Back to the "irrelevancy" of my Irish and Portugese units, for one I believe it is a necessity to know that the Habsburgs or the Spanish did not just have everything in their favor, the Portugese were very much a factor in Spain, and as for the Irish, it was a band of Irish mercenaries that Wallenstein used in his later campaigns, and that eventually killed him, so I believe it is historically needed to have an Irish presecnce in this game, even if it is so minor.

And as for you assertation that Wallenstein was more important to the Catholics than Tilly, you are probably right, however Tilly was of a higher rank, and lived longer, Wallenstein was assasinated during this war, and that is going to be a major point in the game. To have the Habsburgs automatically lose a decisive victory over Wallenstein's eventual assasination is stupid.

And also, Vienna WAS the capital of the Habsburg empire, so it is the capital in this scenario, just because the city didn't have a lot of soldiers doesn't make it the capital. Not ever scenario should be based on military.

Thanks for your suggestions though, next time try not to be so rude, I am Italian I get pissed off very easily, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be so rude in your tone next time.

Thanks.


------------------
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[techumseh]

I'm sorry if you found my comments rude, Capo, but I must admit being a little annoyed at your unjustified arrogance regarding the work of Jesus Munoz. He is one of the most respected scenario makers around, and Thirty Years War is one of his best. It's also my personal favorite.

So when you announce "The greatest most detailed scenario in the history of scenarios...", and go on to trash Jesus' work as having "done the era/war no justice whatsoever", and being "rather inaccurate and without depth," I think a response is in order. All the more so, since you have appropriated his map, some of his wonders and, I gather, many of his units.

I won't re-debate the points already covered, since I don't think you've refuted my arguments. I will point out one further inaccuracy. Tilly did not outlive Wallenstein as you state. He was killed in the Battle of the Lech in 1631. Wallenstein was assassinated on Feb. 25, 1634.

Over the past couple of years, we've seen a number of big talkers come and go. In my experience, they usually don't deliver. Making a scenario is a huge project. The best new scenario makers are usually people who work away for months in total anonymity until they feel confident enough to share their work with others. I like to see new scenario makers release their work, even if it's nowhere near a "Second Front." Everyone gets better as they make each new scenario. But doing it beats talking about it every time.

[kIndal]

I have read somedays ago this topic and i will send you (The Capo) a e-mail to talk about it,but i have no reply. I can see that you have speak a lot about my scenario "30 years war", and if you have offended with the comments of techumseh,i would have to offend with yours,i am Spanish so i have character,too.I recognize that my scenario has lots of errors,i don´t think that nobody can do "The perfect Scenario",but it isn´t "horrible" as you have said. It was my first or second scenario so i have no experience and it was done two years ago,the way to do a scenario was very diferent at this time.The artwork and the historic accuracy,i think, there weren´t so important.In fact, i think that a scenario without a good playability,itsn´t good one although the artwork and accuracy was perfect (scenarios are to play not to learn the smallest details of the history,are important but not is the most), but scenarios as "Red or Second Front" has put very high the level for new ones, so we have to work very hard to create new ones.
I can see that you know a lot about this war(i have to recognize that i have read a book and i did the scenario with it) so i can´t speak lot about its history but i know something ,I think that is an error to create only a civ called Habsburg, with capital in Vienna,and Ferdinand as ruler,Why?and what happend with Madrid and Philip IV.Habsburg Spain and Habsburg Austria were diferent and independents states since Charles I of Spain and V of Germany.In fact in this war they have differents fronts,and in sometimes Spanish have problems in their frontiers when they send help to Austria.Too,the war continues between Spain and France until the Peace of Pyrenees but not with Austrians.
About add England,i think that it is a error,why don´t you add Swiss?there were mercenaries in European armies from this country,and Catalonia or Portugal,they fight against Spanish and French for their independence.Dutch,French Protestants,Papal States, i am sure that the war affects them but you will never included them,won´t you?.There are only 7 civs.
These are examples that,i think, are your errors,but this is your scenario,you do all you want,as said KahnMan,you will do your and i did the mine.they are not incompatible.But you have speak a lot about my work and not very well,you could have sent me a e-mail and we can talk about it,but you haven´t done it,and i think that is a respect fault for me, i think that isn´t very polite say "I have playtested Jesus' scenario, and while I think it is pretty good it is rather unaccurate and without depth. No offense to him, i know how painstaking it is to create your own units and things like that." Or "there is other scenarios about 30 years war but they are horrible",I don´t know nothing about your work and you speak as a you are the best scenario maker of the world,could be right,but until you finish your scenarios nobody will know it.
I am expecting for your scenario,I think it will be wonderful,very worked and very funny,but you will be humbler next time.

[The Capo]

Obviously nobody understands my point of view.

To reiderate again, Jesus your scenario is awesome. I love it to death, which is why i took a few ideas from yours. There are a few other renditions of the war that I said were "horrible" but yours was removed entirely from this area.

I have come under a lot of fire from everywhere, so I have decided to restart the whole thing, well I will keep the units and everything. But I am actually contacting some history buffs to see which "seven nations" should duke it out in this war.

Also I ask that non-partial playtesters volunteer to do the honors here, I will be done with it by wednesday, at least a demo version, so that should be fun.

And so far, the only thing I can even consider better than Jesus' scenario is the units, while his were good, I really really really really took painstaking efforts to make sure that these looked like sid meier's.

Jesus can tell you also, it is very hard to make a scenario because one mistake can ruin the entire thing, so I appreciate everyone's input in helping me make this scenario really great.

Peace.

------------------
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[master on high]

I know nothing of the era, but I'll say this: "it's not cool to trash other people's work."

[KhanMan]

As I have played (and greatly enjoyed) Jesus' scenario, but I do not feel the need to defend either side against the other, I am interested in playtesting. My posts in this topic should prove my impartiality, but I do not wish to judge the two against each other, if that is your intent. Each scenario is a valid expression of it's maker's vision for a scenario, and I see no competition.

On a side note, it is:
K-H-A-N M-A-N,

*NOT*

KAHN MAN.

-KhanMan of Sayen

[kIndal]

Well, as you have said peace .

Too,I have to say that i am really interested in your scenario (i love this age and this war), and when it will be finished, I will play it,too,I love playtesting and if you want i will send you non-partials comments.

Sorry, KhanMan, for changing your name .