Question for ancient navy experts

[Stefan Härtel]

Nope, although they do sound interesting. Ours have boring titles like "Das Frühe Persien", "Griechische Geschichte", "Die Römer in Germanien" and so on. But they are very good- the book about Persia was written by one of my favourite authors of that subject. His other book is my main source of information.

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Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
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[Stefan Härtel]

Who is/are the author(s) of this book? There is not somebody called Wiesehöfer or Hinz (or perhaps even Girshman)?

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Prometeus]

Nope... the autor is Gerhard Schweizer...
definitely are not the same books!

[Stefan Härtel]

I doubt they are the same books, but it could have been that the author(s) wrote something I know.
I also doubt that the author wrote everything by himself. That is unusual for such a book, he is most propably the publisher (I could be wrong though).
Is there a bibliographic appendix in the book? Does it list some of these books or authors:

-Josef Wiesehöfer, Das antike Persien
-Heidemarie Koch, Es kündet Dareios der König
-R(oman) Ghirsham, Iran
-Anything by Walter Hinz and/or any of the authors
?????????????????

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Prometeus]

Mmmmmhhh... no.
Let me see...
Cahen, Claude "Islam", first volume...
Gallas, Klaus "Historical places of Iran"...
Hottinger, Arnold "Arabs and Persia"...
Kaempfer, Engelbert "The Great King's Hall of throne" Tubingen-Basilea 1977 is the most near to your's.

To BeBro
Have you considered the idea of making a naval wonder ( not the Lighthouse - i was referring to Magellan's expedition ...)? Something like the "Great Carthage's arsenal" ( this'll also allow you to perform the Carthage's naval superiority and/or strenght ), or the "Nearcus' expedition"?
I think some of StLeo icons should perform these wonders very well ( remember, ask permission first )!

[SCDARS]

Prometeus:
In the former version of his "imperium Romanum" scenario (currently only avialable in German )BeBro already implemented both Nearchs voyage and the Lighthouse as wonders, I think...
BTW,

[SCDARS]

BTW, it's a very fun and interesting scenario, and we should all look forward to the promised update...
[This message has been edited by SCDARS (edited June 25, 2000).] - I regret this double post...
[This message has been edited by SCDARS (edited June 25, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

Aww, too bad i can't read German... in my head only italian and a few of english can have enough room ( as well as sardinian, of course - my family comes from here )!!!

I was referring to languages, of course!
BTW ( by the way, i suppose... ), i think that the Great Carthage arsenal might be a better wonder - instead of Nearcus expedition, - because Seleucid fleet "played" only support efforts...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 26, 2000).]

[SCDARS]

I've found some infomation about
"naval ship(s)" in the Encyclopædia Britannica Online.

quote: After Salamis, the trireme continued as the backbone of the Greek fleet, with the ram continuing as its primary weapon. Its keel, like those of its predecessors, formed the principal-strength member, running the length of the ship and curving upward at each end. The ram, usually shod in bronze, formed a forward prolongation that gained effectiveness from the heavy keel back of it. Additional longitudinal strength came from a storming bridge, a gangway along the centreline from bow to stern along which the crew raced to board when a foe was rammed. Gradually, with ships becoming steadily heavier, boarding assumed greater importance and the ram lost some of its importance. A trireme of the 5th century BC may have had a length of about 125 feet, a beam of 20 feet, and a draft of three feet. Manned by about 200 officers, seamen, and oarsmen (perhaps 85 on a side), with a small band of heavily armed epibatai (marines), under oars it could reach seven knots (seven nautical miles per hour; one knot equals 1.15 statute miles per hour or 1.85 kilometres per hour). Extremely light and highly maneuverable, the classical trireme represented the most concentrated application of human muscle power to military purposes ever devised. The oarsmen sat on three levels, which were slightly staggered laterally and fore and aft to achieve the maximum number of oarsmen for the size of the hull. In rowing, the oarsmen slid back and forth on leather cushions strapped to their buttocks; this enabled full use of the powerful muscles of the thighs and abdomen. With only scant room for provisions, such warships could not remain long at sea, and a voyage usually consisted of short hops from island to island or headland to headland. Even the largest triremes put into shore and beached for the night, resuming the passage in the morning, weather permitting. Light construction and little endurance made short distances between bases essential and frequent refits imperative.

Then it says about "Later developments":

quote: The trireme reached its peak development in Athens. By the middle of the 4th century BC, Athenians employed quadriremes (four-bank seating), with quinqueremes appearing soon thereafter. In the late 4th and early 3rd century BC an arms race developed in the eastern Mediterranean, producing even larger multibanked ships. Macedonia's rulers built 18-banked craft requiring crews of 1,800 men. Ptolemaic Egypt capped them with 20s and 30s. Ptolemy III even laid down a 40 (tesseraconter) with a design length of over 400 feet and calling for a crew of 4,000 rowers. The vessel was never actually used. (The multiplicity of "banks," once a puzzle to historians, signifies the number of rowers on each oar or row of oars rather than an almost unimaginable vertical piling-up of banks.)

That's it! - The 4000 soldiers mentionened in your first post, Bernd...

The following is just for those who're really interested and have not already given up reading because of boredom...

quote: This same arms race brought other changes of significance. Until the late 4th century BC, maneuver, marines, and the ram constituted a warship's offensive strength, and archers provided close-in fire. Demetrius I Poliorcetes of Macedonia is credited with introducing heavy missile weapons on ships at the end of the century, starting a trend that has continued to the present day. Demetrius' ships mounted crossbowlike catapults, for hurling heavy darts, and stone-throwing machines of the type the Romans later called ballistae. From this time on, large warships carried these weapons, enabling them to engage a foe at standoff ranges, though ramming and boarding also continued. Temporary wooden turrets--forecastles and sterncastles--were similarly fitted to provide elevated platforms for archers and slingers. Following the fragmentation of the brief empire of Alexander the Great, sea power developed elsewhere. The city-state of Rhodes built a small but competent fleet to protect its vital shipping. Meanwhile to the west, Carthage, a state with ancient maritime origins, rose to prominence on the north coast of Africa and by about 300 BC had become the foremost Mediterranean naval power. Carthage's navy consisted probably of the same ram-galley types developed by its ancestral Phoenicians and by the Greeks.

[This message has been edited by SCDARS (edited June 25, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

To SCDARS
Thanks, SCDARS!!! i've never thinked about Britannica stuff...

To Stefan
My source book about Persians is titled "I Persiani da Zaharatushtra a Khomeini" ( "The Persians from Zaharatushtra's to Khomeini's times" - but original German title is simply "Persien"... too short, huh? ).

P.S. times need not to be written in italian construction - it's ... "sottointeso"!!!
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 25, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

Don´t worry, Prometeus! The new version of my scn will be available in English too.

Question: The Great Carthage arsenal, what is it? I´ve seen a pic of a giant round building in the seaport of Carthago, where their warships were stored in the winter or when not in operation, is this the arsenal (I hope this is correct explained)?

[Prometeus]

Biiiiiinnnnnngggooooooo!!!!
You're right. That's the mighty Arsenal of the powerfull Carthaginian fleet...

[BeBMan]

Thanks a lot, Prometeus! Perhaps I change Nearchos´Voyage into the Slot of Darwin´s, and take the Great Arsenal as Magellan´s Expedition...

[Stefan Härtel]

Prometeus: I ran the infos about that book of yours thru www.buch.de, a German major online bookstore. Schweizer seems to be an important professor of Islamic and near eastern history. I have indeed seen the book of yours in its German version in Berlin, but it was called "Iran- Drehscheibe zwischen Ost und West".

BeBro: Is your scenario the one that was called "Antike" on the Largest German page?
If I remember correctly, it goes back into Achaemenid times. In that case, I would suggest that you replace Nearchus' voyage either by Hanno's voyage, or Skylax' voyage. Hanno was a carthaginian explorer who sailed from Carthage around northern Africa as far as Guniea (I have a map of his voyage, if you want to have it... ), Skylax was a Greek seafarer, who sailed through the Persian Gulf, the waters of the Arabian sea and around the Arabian penninsula and finally demanded the Great King of Persia to complete the "Suez" canal of antiquity.
Both voyages were of much more importance than Nearchus' puddle walk.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Prometeus]

To Stefan
Maybe it was renamed... who knows?

To BeBro
Another hint: during Hellenistic times, many naval installations were fortified in order to prevent a sea assault... why not, fortified navy port instead of naval fortress as city improvement... i tried it on my "Ex oriente lux" scenario - it worked pretty good. What do you think about, Stefan?