the SL forum and the future Civ3-Creation forum

[Fiera]

Originally posted by MarkG
i think though that it would be more important if we clarified the future of sleague and it's forum. if the sleague forum is only going to be a parallel forum to the future Civ3-Creation forum, i dont see a point for it's existance.

But Markos, you've allowed the parellel-existence of Civ2-Creation and SLeague forums for a couple of years at least (maybe more)!

[Kull]

Originally posted by MarkG

and yes, i suppose one can say that the sleague forum is covering "civ3-creation" discussions although the site has no civ3 material. i think though that it would be more important if we clarified the future of sleague and it's forum. if the sleague forum is only going to be a parallel forum to the future Civ3-Creation forum, i dont see a point for it's existance.

MarkG: If you plan on discussing the future and purpose of the Scenario League (including - apparently - the possibility of killing it), do us a favor and move THAT discussion to the S-League Forum.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Fiera
But Markos, you've allowed the parellel-existence of Civ2-Creation and SLeague forums for a couple of years at least (maybe more)!

yes, but at that time SL was a constantly updated site...

[MarkG]

the posts above are from the discusion in the apolyton forum

all i'm saying is that if the SL site is going to remain not updated, we would have to have some distinction on the content of the SL forum and the future Civ3-Creation forum in order for the SL forum to have some actual reason for it's existance.

[Fiera]

First of all, thanks Markos for moving this part of the discussion here.

Originally posted by MarkG
yes, but at that time SL was a constantly updated site...

Hmm, the people here will surely be able to tell you better, but I think the SL site hasn't been updated for six or seven months now.

Thing is, this is where the scenario creators community meet, discuss new ideas, and introduce their new creations, and they continue to do so, even if the site is no longer updated or doesn't receive any more reviews.

I think you could be more interested in getting rid off a forum with little or no traffic, instead or this one, which seems very much alive to me.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Fiera
I think you could be more interested in getting rid off a forum with little or no traffic, instead or this one, which seems very much alive to me.

it's not an issue of low traffic, it's just an issue of not mixing things up and confusing people on where they are supposed to post

[BeBMan]

Thing is, this is where the scenario creators community meet, discuss new ideas, and introduce their new creations, and they continue to do so, even if the site is no longer updated or doesn't receive any more reviews.

I think you could be more interested in getting rid off a forum with little or no traffic, instead or this one, which seems very much alive to me.

Absolutely. And this forum is more than a "Creation" forum - it covers all scn aspects - just think of the PBEM scn games.

However, technically it plays not a big role if we post in the Civ2 Creation area or here, but here is more traffic for sure. And I don´t know what other scn makers think, but personally I consider the SL forum as my "home" at Apolyton - it would be a pity when you close it...

[MarkG]

Originally posted by BeBro
just think of the PBEM scn games.

yeah, well, shouldnt they be in the civ2-mp forum?

[Shadowstrike]

How about you kill off the slated Civ3-Creation forum, and point the folks here instead? That would solve many problems.......

[klesh]

the thing is that most kids in the MP forum are playing CivII MP sans scenarios etc. To tell you the truth, I never even bother going to the CivII Creation forum for my scenario building needs, nor do I go to the MP forum for my PBEM needs.

The SLeague to me is like a 'home' just like BeBro said. I can even ask the kids here about historical stuff pertaining to scen building etc. This is a unique little guild of kids here, and it would be a real shame to lose it. My vote (as if I had one ) would be to have the Creation forum absorbed into this one. MP, to me, is just that...MPing the orginal game. So that nees its own realm. But Marko, you have a very dedicated community here that really helps to enrich the Apolyton experience.

Has there been an open call as of yet to ask for people to run the SLeague site itself? Personally I think we couild loose the site, but keep the forum. ACS has its own section for scen DLing so thats not really a problem as I see it. Most of the SLeague site could be absorbed into ACS without loosing much. Just my 7¢™.



-FMK.

[master on high]

I haven't visited any other forum but the SLeague for a LONG time.

I probably wouldn't come around anymore if I had to go to a Civ3-Creation forum just to find out what's new for Civ2.

[Mercator]

Indeed, the lack of Sleague updates might have made this forum obsolete. But the Sleague forum has grown now, totally independant of the Sleague website (I hardly ever visited it).
The Civ2 creation forum is somewhat of a general civ2 creation help forum for newbies, while the SLeague is the place where most (veteran) Civ2 designers "hang out".
One option would be to get rid of the SL forum, replacing it by the Civ2/3 creation forums. The only real problem would be of a psychological, because the SL visitor would lose their cherished homestead.
On the other hand, the SL forum is the busiest HS forum, while the Civ2 Creation forum is not busy at all. And with the advent of Civ3, traffic to the Civ2 forums will undoubtedly decrease even more. So maybe it would be better to remove the Civ2 Creation section first, merging it with Civ2 General.
Another thing, the SL forum is more of a philosophical playground for the creators. Every aspect of civ creation and beyond is discussed here.

I don´t really know how to deal with Civ3 Creation vs Scenario League, though. This forum is bound to start discussion of Civ3 (was Hoek the first?) and then it would be a much better idea if there was only one place where people could go. It happened al too often that someone posted some new stuff in the Civ2 Creation forum, and no-one noticed, because everyone was over here. But this forum is still about Civ2, and not Civ3.
Maybe it´s best to wait until Civ3 is fully available, see what happens and then deal with the Civ2 Creation and SL forums.

[Kull]

Originally posted by MarkG

all i'm saying is that if the SL site is going to remain not updated, we would have to have some distinction on the content of the SL forum and the future Civ3-Creation forum in order for the SL forum to have some actual reason for it's existance.

Much as it pains me to say so, you do have a point. But there are several issues here, so lets consider them individually:

1) "Duplicate Content" - As others have pointed out, the Civ2 Creation and Scenario League forums have coexisted for years. Personally I think there's a distinction in that the former is more of a clearinghouse for newbie-type questions, while the S-League is where the serious exploration of capabilities and enhancements is revealed and discussed.

As Bebro notes, the "sleeg" has also become something of a home for those interested in PBEM scenario games, which is a distinguishing characteristic not found in the Creation forums (and yet pertinent to the concept of a "Scenario League" of people focused on all aspects of scenarios)

On the other hand the focus of the S-League has always been Civ2 scenarios, and thus it's reasonable to ask the following question:

2) "Can and should the Scenario League focus on BOTH Civ2 and Civ3?" - One way to look at this would be a comparison with the existing situation involving Civ2 and CTP2. The latter has an active and distinguished group of Modders, and yet there's very little intercourse between their group and ours. Which is not surprising since the discussions and techniques of enhancing CTP2 have almost no relevance to Civ2, and vice versa. But from everything we've heard Civ3 is going to be an "evolutionary" upgrade to Civ2, so it's possible that we may find significant similarities between the two. Which is encouraging, because the other parrallel is between Civ2 and ToT. And no one can argue the fact that the Scenario League was a valid forum for BOTH games.

So the answer to the question is "maybe", perhaps even "probably". We just have to wait and see. Which leads us to a trickier issue:

3) "Updating the Scenario League Web Site" - There's definitely an element of the "pot calling the kettle black" here. You can't accuse us of failing to update the Web Site when a committed old-timer like Cam was driven away - at least in part - by his inability to access and update the web pages. This is not an isolated occurrence, since I (and now Dominic) experienced the same problem as webmaster of the Gamestats-hosted Clash of Civilizations site. But you know what? Let's ignore that for a moment and consider the larger question:

4) "Who is the Scenario League and what are they willing to do to ensure it's survival?" - The crux of the matter, really. We have a "leader" (Warvoid) who rarely appears on the forums and certainly hasn't done anything with the web site (whether that's because of item 3 or that he's just moved on, who knows). But we also have people like me who consider this forum their Apolyton home, and yet have never provided a single solitary tip or review for posting on the League's home page. So maybe it's put-up or shut-up time. What IS the Charter of the Scenario League? What should it do that no one else is doing? And who's willing to pitch in to make that happen? My guess is that if we can answer those questions - and more importantly, follow through on what we agree to do - then MarkG will go away happy and the Scenario League will have a new lease on life.

[Jay Bee]

Before having the TSCIIS forum this one was also 'my home'. I have been here much before SL was born, and have always been very close to Blackclove and Cam. I was even asked to join the site a couple of times. Blackclove made an april's fool joke out of that a long time ago What I am trying to say is that I know the story of SL and its forum first hand from the very beginning to the end.

Based on my own experience, and at the risk of being accused of brown-nosing, I have to say that MarkG has gotten a very strong point, with which I totally concur. If the SLeague is no more this forum makes little sense and should be absorbed into Civ2(3) creation. That more people come here than to Civ2 creation is just a matter of 'custom' and as such can readily change.

You know, there was a time where SL did not exist, and the Civ2 creation forums of this and other sites thrived with brilliant posts and brilliant posters.

Now, if SLeague is given new life again (seriously I mean), the situation changes.

(Edit: spelling)

[Kull]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
If the SLeague is no more this forum makes little sense and should be absorbed into Civ2(3) creation

Now the fact that Spain is not included as one of the default civs in Civ3 - does that perhaps remove the need for the Spanish Civ Site Forum? Is it now a tad obsolete?

But seriously JB, don't you face exactly the same question? If you buy into the theory that different forums are required for Civ2 and Civ3, you're in a similar situation. "Updating the web site" ought not to be the determining factor here, although it's certainly relevant. Don't get me wrong, the Spanish Civ Site Forum is a great place, but perhaps the advent of Civ3 means you've got "Charter" issues as well.