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**Case** · August 29, 2001, 19:29

*joins drooling masses*

FMK, I see that you're using Nemo's T-34/85 graphic. I don't know what you're using it for exactly, but I don't think that T-34/85's were advailable in large numbers untill lthe second half of 1943, and the didn't become common untill 1944.

**klesh** · August 29, 2001, 21:13

You are correct Case. There are both the T-34/76mm and the T-34/85mm in the scenario. The /76 makes appearences at the start, but the /85 is only available for the Soviets later in the scen. My fav. site for Russian armor is down so I'll have to get back to you on your point. But it is a good one. Thouigh I have seen many pictures of T-34's at Stalingrad (and they even have a few there today), I think I may exchange the /85 for the /76 and then add in a lighter tanks such as the T28 in the /76's place. Thank you for pointing this out though. I will have to do some checking up on it...

-FMK.

**klesh** · August 29, 2001, 21:37

Jolly good show Case!!!

Skalman.nu Forum - Index

http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-tank-t34.htm

BAM!!!

I just checked a different site and sure enough... the T-34/85 wasn't built untill August '43!!!

I will absolutely have to make these changes then Case. Thank you so very much for keeping a sharp eye out! That certainly would've been a glaring historical innacuracy had it gone untouched. It makes a big difference for me. Thank you.

So long /85mm... Hellooooooo T-28!
*Yeah! from the Germans...*
*Hisss from the Soviets... *

-FMK.

**Scott F** · August 30, 2001, 00:36

Re: great ideas!

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh As for now, the repeatitive Wermarch graphics are representing different units and their respective weapons...: Landser Kar'98 and Landser Mp-40 etc... If they have a helmet on or are crouching, you can assume they are better on defense. If a guy has a machinepistol you can assume he is better than a guy with a bolt action rifle on offense.

Are you sure there were so many SS forces in Stalingrad? I wasn't aware that there were that many. There were political officers and all of that, but I don't think that there were Waffen SS units in the area. I thought that those didn't appear until much later in the war.

Geez ScottF! Have you been peaking!!!!

Sadly, no, I have not been peaking, but I was considering doing some sort of resupply thing with the British having to do food convoys in my Turtledove WWI scenario. I can't think of a way to get it to work in that particular instance, as the AI is too stupid to use it and you can't create food caravans/freights with events, as far as I know. I think that this instance might work better though.

[quote]Now this idea is excellent, but I don't know. It sounds chaotic. I have manually placed some rubble about the city and I think a few changeterrain commands might be just as sucessful here.

[/quote

I've tried the nuclear power plant thing with pretty good results in the Turtledove scenario. The only real problem is the global warming that it creates if there are too many of them over the length of the scenario. That's why I want to see if anyone knows of a way to get rid of global warming permanently.

Change terrain events take up an awful lot of event file space, I think. Space-wise you probably won't be able to do it that way.

**Case** · August 30, 2001, 00:59

Re: Jolly good show Case!!!

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh

I will absolutely have to make these changes then Case. Thank you so very much for keeping a sharp eye out! That certainly would've been a glaring historical innacuracy had it gone untouched. It makes a big difference for me. Thank you.

No worries

**Henrik** · August 30, 2001, 02:09

Re: Re: great ideas!

Originally posted by Scott F
Are you sure there were so many SS forces in Stalingrad? I wasn't aware that there were that many. There were political officers and all of that, but I don't think that there were Waffen SS units in the area. I thought that those didn't appear until much later in the war.

Well as I was the one to sugest using the "Landser" name for the infantry:
In the book "Stalingrad" (I havent got time to check on the authors name right now, I will be back on that) the author continiously refers to the "average" german soldier as "Der Landser", is landser only SS soldiers?

Sadly, no, I have not been peaking, but I was considering doing some sort of resupply thing with the British having to do food convoys in my Turtledove WWI scenario. I can't think of a way to get it to work in that particular instance, as the AI is too stupid to use it and you can't create food caravans/freights with events, as far as I know. I think that this instance might work better though.

The germans are human controlled in this scenario (I should know as a tester

).

I've tried the nuclear power plant thing with pretty good results in the Turtledove scenario. The only real problem is the global warming that it creates if there are too many of them over the length of the scenario. That's why I want to see if anyone knows of a way to get rid of global warming permanently.

It is possible to hex edit a file into eliminating global warming.

**Scott F** · August 30, 2001, 02:38

How, exactly do you edit it to do that? (I don't have a clue about hex editing at all though...)

**Scott F** · August 30, 2001, 03:15

Also, if I am not mistaken, there were no Waffen SS units in Paulus' Sixth Army. The orders of battle for Stalingrad that I have seen on various websites don't mention any. I don't have my copy of Enemy at the Gates with me though. It might say in there someplace.

**Henrik** · August 30, 2001, 09:57

The book was:
"Stalingrad" by "Antony Beevor" and the impression I got while reading it was that:
A foot soldier=Ein landser.

Do you say that a Landser=Waffen SS?

And I think there is a large hex edit thread in this forum if you want to search for it (I dont remember how, but it is in thier there).

**klesh** · August 30, 2001, 11:49

ouch...

Geez...you guys are breaking up my gig here!

This SS revalation is very true. I just checked all the units involved in Stalingrad. No SS. For some reason, I think I just assumed they were in effect. Maybe it was the reference to 'Sturm Battalion' that is featured in the film Stalingrad that got me assuming wrongly. Not sure. But this is not good. If I take out the 2 SS footsoldiers the Germans will loose 2 of their nasty units. I am already stretching the Wermacht names... and the SS guys give a nice visual break form the feldgrau Wermacht uniforms.

Yes, a confusing conundrum of historical correctness indeed. Any thoughts?

-FMK.

**Spanky** · August 30, 2001, 13:27

Henrik, as a native German-speaker (though not a German), I share your impression of "Landser" being a colloquial term used for the basic foot soldier - probably similar to "grunt" or maybe "G.I." in the US.

In fact, from what I've gathered from the recent public controversy in Germany, surrounding the Wehrmacht's role in the genocide of WWII, the discussion sometimes revolved around whether the ordinary "Landser" bore any responsibility for the murders, as opposed to just the members of the SS.

**klesh** · August 30, 2001, 13:51

Spanky,

I think were having a misunderstanding here. Scott was questioning my use of the SS in Stalingrad. He was not questioning Henrik's use of the Landser term. Henrik had the same confusion I think. I straightened him out on AIM...

Speaking of the current debate in Germany...have you read Hitler's Willing Excutioners by Goldhagen? I hear it caused quite a contervery over there. I read it as part of a Directed Studies on Fascism at University here. He makes alot of claims in that book. As a follow-up read I would suggest A Nation on Trial by Finkelstein and Birn. They really lay into Goldhagen's thesis. Great reading for someone interested.

I am making some changes regarding these recent developments.
Back to the drawing board!

-FMK.

**Spanky** · August 31, 2001, 05:31

Well, you're right, it certainly has - sadly, I haven't gotten round to reading the book yet. Thanks for your recommendations. Actually, German society has been debating its past more than ever before, ever since Reunification and the end of the Cold War. Goldhagen's theses represent one of many aspects of this debate.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Sort of acted on impulse there!

**Case** · August 31, 2001, 06:46

This is getting a bit OT, but I'd also recomend 'Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth' by Gitta Sereny. It outlines how Speer (Hitler's architect, and the German minister for armaments) hid his knowledge of the mass murder of the Jews, and how he came to terms with the crimes he participated in.

Getting back onto the topic, FMK could I sugest you replace the SS units with dismounted Panzer Crews? I think that I've seen references to these guys fighting on foot after their Panzers were knocked out at Stalingrad.

If you haven't included them, I'd also recomend that you include 'Hiwi's', who were Soviet 'collaborators'*, who served in auxilliery roles in the German divisions. As casualites mounted many Hiwi's were pressed into the infantry.

*Many joined the Germans to escape from near certain death in the prisoner of war camps, and others saw the Nazi's as superior to Stalins brutality (especially Ukrainians, and Balts)

**klesh** · August 31, 2001, 10:24

Crap, I wrote a big long post, but it got lost

[OT]
The only thing I have read about Spear is his autobiography. Hard to tell how much is truth and how much is damage controll. I must say he presents convincing arguments as to his morality and such. Things such as his refusal to pass on Hitler's order to ravage western Germany as the Allies approached.

But for him, as a kid just out of college, I can imagine having the 'leader' of your country to ask you to do all kinds of big gov buildings must have seemed like a good idea to him. Ya know?

You mentioned the Ukrainians...I am of Ukrainian herritage, so their story is dear to me. I suggest you try to find some stuff about the UPA... Ukrainian Insurgence Army. Don't ask why it isn't UIA

These guys were nationalists who wanted an independent Ukraine. 'Round about '43 these guys started fighting both the Germans and the Soviets! A small band of rebels in the middle of the biggest conflict ever... and they are enemies with both sides!!!! Crazy...
[/OT]

Okay, for the SS guys I have put in a Fj unit. Now, before I ruffle anyone's feathers I did reasearch as to the Fj's role in the battle. The certainly were not a focal point, but they were in fact there. I made a few changes to straighten out all the confusion this has caused me.

The knocked out Panzer crews is a good idea. I will keep it in mind if I get a spot for it. They do have the snazzy black uniforms too.

The Hiwi's I have been debating with myself for sometime now. I need to get a unique way to represent them in the game.

Another good unit to add may be the Police Battalions. They were at Stalingrad in force.

All this unit shuffling has opened a few doors for me.

-FMK.

P.S. This thread is getting close to 150 posts...should I make a new one so as to avoid 'the Curse'?

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