For King and Country

[josefstalin]

I vote conservative
Please folks, lets get back to the scenario
If anybody wishes to inquire into my politics email me
I apologise for bringing up politics in a civ2 thread
Please let us have no more

[GoPostal]

I am sorry

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by High_Flyer



Are you joking???



Facts About Metaxas:

While King George and sections of the Greek political elite had anglophile tendencies, Greece was led by General Metaxas, a dictator who had far more in common with the Axis leaders than the western democracies.

After the ruling anti-royalist party was ousted in 1935, King George II was restored to the throne. He made the right-wing general Ioannis Metaxas prime minister. Under the pretext of preventing a communist takeover of the government, Metaxas made himself DICTATOR within nine months.

His grand vision was to create a Third Greek Civilization based on its glorious Ancient and Byzantine past, but what he actually created was more a Greek version of the Third Reich. He exiled or imprisoned opponents, banned trade unions and the KKE (Kommunistiko Komma Ellados, the Greek Communist Party), imposed press censorship, and created a secret police force and a fascist-style youth movement.

The Greeks did not fight the Fascist-Italians in some idealistic Hellenic struggle to "defend democracy", freedom of speech, or for a multi-party system... they fought them because - they INVADED Greece and they had plans to annex parts of Greece.

It was during his succesful leadership of the military operations against the Italians that Metaxas died. It was a mysterious death, and some rumours circulating at the time pointed out that he was in fact assassinated by either the Italian secret services or the British, the latter because he had refused the British to intervene in Greece. In fact, after his death the king replaced Metaxas with Alexander Koryzis, who agreed to allow British forces to enter Greek soil. But there is no real proof about how, and by whom, he was killed.

However, it seems more than likely that Metaxas was killed by an internal conspiracy of Greek political elites, who both hated Metaxas' dictatorial power and the fact that many in Metaxas's circle favoured a British intervention in helping repel the Axis.

This is similar to the "insiders" of Generals and others who tried to assassinate Hitler in 1944.

Once the Greek Government asked for British help, the British loyally offered substantial forces, thus endangering their own position in North Africa by doing so.

????????????????????

Of course we fought the Axis because we were attacked!
Nobody would give his life for democracy or any of that crap!
Do you sincerely believe that ANY people of the era decided to enter the war for such abstract notions as "democracy" and "world peace"?

Metaxas was a fascist allright. And so what? He led the nation to glory and thats what counts.

To your information Metaxas was above all Greek. 2 years before the war he gathered the journalists in a press conference and said:"There is a war brewing in Europe. We will try our best to keep Greece out of this calamity but that will not be possible. In the event that the war reaches Greece we will side with Great Britain-for they will eventually prevail, having on their side the democracies(France and USA) and the jews."

From the onset of his reign Metaxas begum to prepare Greece for the upcoming war. We were the only army with 88 flaks apart from Germany. Even Churchill in his memoirs claimed that from all the countries that took part in WW2 Greece was the most well prepared.

And he was right IMHO of persecuting the communists AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. They were a possible threat to the nation's sovereignity(as they later proved when they took the opportunity of Allied operations in the Ardennes to invade Athens) plus when the Italian war broke out(and the Axis were still "allies" of the U.S.S.R) they undermined morale by urging the soldiers to turn their arms against the monarchists ruling Greece instead against the "fellow italian liberators".
That traitorus behavior of theirs at the EARLY PHASES of the war caused severe frictions even among the communist leadership.

Keep in mind that it was an era of political unrest- revolutionary fever hadn't yet subsided and many groups were determined to overthrow the current regimes with force.
Any goverment with a right mind(democratic, fascist, communist or whatever) isn't about to simply surrender its power to an opposing group without a fight. Even today.

P.S For your information the Greek goverment never requested aid from Britain. Metaxas RIGHTLY claimed that accepting the minor aid the English could offer would equal the death of his country as it would give the Germans the pretext they wanted to invade. Only if the Brits were to sent 10 or more divisions that would be adequate for protection against a possible german invasion would allied aid be accepted. Unfortuantely with Metaxas death, the weak Koryzis was unable to defend against British political pressure.

Churchill you see had visions of revenging Gallipolis, overlooking the current strategical situation.

[High_Flyer]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
P.S For your information the Greek goverment never requested aid from Britain. Metaxas RIGHTLY claimed that accepting the minor aid the English could offer would equal the death of his country as it would give the Germans the pretext they wanted to invade. Only if the Brits were to sent 10 or more divisions that would be adequate for protection against a possible german invasion would allied aid be accepted. Unfortuantely with Metaxas death, the weak Koryzis was unable to defend against British political pressure.

Churchill you see had visions of revenging Gallipolis, overlooking the current strategical situation.

I provided that background on Metaxas because it helps us understand why he, in all likelihood, was murdered by Greek political elites. Most political assassinations are home grown. In all likelihood, those who did the actual plotting to get rid of Metaxas probably placed the blame for his death on either the Italians or the British.

You claimed that the British both killed Metaxas AND betrayed the Greek people. I have yet to see any proof for such ideas.

After Metaxas' death, the King appointed Koryzis Prime Minister, thus making him the head of the Greek Gov't. He, in turn, asked the British Gov't for help. This is no surprise since the King, himself, and many other political elites in Greece at that time had Anglophile sympathies.

Since Koryzis was the head of the Gov't, then this means that the Greek Gov't did in fact ask the British for help. Weak or not, it is clear that Koryzis was carrying out the wishes of the King and other Greek elites. Unlike Metaxas, he was not a dictator and could NOT do as he wished.

Even IF Churchill wanted to revenge Gallipoli (and what's wrong with trying to uphold one's honor?), you provide NO facts to back this statement. Even so, this is still a far cry from your earlier statement claiming the British killed Metaxas and betrayed the Greek people!

Churchill was highly criticized for supplying 100,000 men and equipment to help Greece. This act, rather than betraying the Greek people, instead, was done to help them. It not only left the British position in North Africa weak (Rommel was able to exploit this), but many a brave British/ANZAC soldier/sailor died trying to defend Greece.

Churchill defended his decision to help Greece, in spite of the criticism, because he thought it was important to keep his word and to back a new ally against the Axis powers (at this time the British Commonwealth was alone in fighting the victorious Axis powers. The USA and USSR were still not in the war).

Finally, all the reasons Metaxas gave for refusing British help were for nothing, since German forces DID invade Greece anyway. By refusing British aid earlier, Metaxas thereby caused even more Allied soldier deaths, since British troops were dispatched to Greece after the Axis invasion, and did not have the benefit of having more time to create defendable positions.

I have yet to see where the British betrayed the Greek people

[POTUS]

Ok!!! Be quiet!!! I don't care about what you think about England, Greece, anything other than the scenario!!!

Ok, I am currently placing cities.

[High_Flyer]

Originally posted by POTUS
Ok!!! Be quiet!!! I don't care about what you think about England, Greece, anything other than the scenario!!!

Of the half dozen people who have high-jacked this thread you are only telling me to be quiet?


That's fine. I was getting bored anyway.

Well, you better get busy then. . .

I'm off to play some great games. . .

[Harry Tuttle]

Good god... POTUS, if you need any help, please PM me and I'll save you the threadjacking bs. I can slip in some time in between AE stuff.

[GoPostal]

How about we make a new on-topic thread. And High - Flyer - this is POTUS's thread. He doesn't hijack, he directs.

[High_Flyer]

Originally posted by GoPostal
How about we make a new on-topic thread. And High - Flyer - this is POTUS's thread. He doesn't hijack, he directs.

Well, I am not the one who high-jacked this thread. Even POTUS contributed to the discussion.

I merely took issue with some of the more questionable historical statements that were being made.

POTUS lost control of this thread many pages ago, long before I showed up.

Yet his comments were only directed at me.

I think a new thread would be advised.

@ POTUS

Sorry my friend, I wish you all the best.