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  • #61
    The Celts weren't attacking anyone. Forget the Celts. Harald Hadraade's Norweigan army (not really Vikings) attacked England from the North Sea and were defeated by the English King Harold I at Stamford Bridge.

    Very shortly after William Duke of Normandy landed on the South Coast of England and met Harold's Army at the Battle of Hastings where Harold was killed.

    William and Harald Hadraade both wanted to be king of England and weren't allies, although their very nearly coincident invasions at both ends of the country had much the same effect by forcing Harold to march North to defeat the Norweigans and then immediately south to take on William, whom he very nearly defeated. Had he succeeded, he would have gone down in history as one of the great monarchs of the age.

    Cornwall is the South-Western-most tip of England which juts out in the sea above Brittany (NE France) and below S. W. Wales. By this time, although still predominantly Celtic, it was part of England. BTW, the Celts at this time weren't a nation but an ethnic grouping. The Scottish were and are Celts, as were/are the Irish, Welsh and French population (although the aristocracy of France were confusingly Germanic Franks, another legacy of the late/post-Roman Germanic migrations). The Normans (from Norse-men) were descended from Vikings who had invaded N. France.

    The 'nobles' were all-important at this time, particularly in battle. The best part of Harold's army consisted of his aristocratic thegns who were the best equiped and trained fighters, while the bulk of the army was made up of the less effective 'fyrd' or peasant conscripts.
    http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

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    • #62
      Originally posted by fairline

      Harald Hadraade ... saw a chance of usurping the English throne when Edward the Confessor died without an heir and it passed almost by default to Harold Godwinson.
      IIRC, the English throne at this time was not hereditary. Harold Godwinson had no greater claim than William. A new king was selected from a group of people who had royal blood.

      One of the crucial questions is whether Harold gave an oath to support William which he later broke. It was the breaking of this oath that gave Papal support to William's invasion.

      Harold was the powerful man on the spot when Edward died. He organised a coup and would probably have got away with it if there had been no question about an oath to William. Of course the oath may have been obtained under duress and it may have been a fiction used as a pretext for the invasion.

      But history is written by the winners, so Harold broke his oath and suffered the penalty. And the rest is history.

      RJM at Sleeper's
      Fill me with the old familiar juice

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      • #63
        If you want to begin the series after the Romans and before the arrival of the Normans (and have Civ 3), then I'd like to suggest looking at this thread from ages ago on CFC. Loads of work went into getting all the city names correct and the units, etc so it should be very useful to you. You could stretch history a little I suppose, and finish the scenario with the Norman invasion.

        Even if you don't have Civ 3, then the thread should give you lots of useful info about the period.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

          ...One of the crucial questions is whether Harold gave an oath to support William which he later broke. It was the breaking of this oath that gave Papal support to William's invasion.

          Harold was the powerful man on the spot when Edward died. He organised a coup and would probably have got away with it if there had been no question about an oath to William. Of course the oath may have been obtained under duress and it may have been a fiction used as a pretext for the invasion.
          RJM at Sleeper's
          This was a situation engineered by William. Harold had been shipwrecked on the Norman Coast when Edward was still king and was effectively held captive by William who had Harold swear an oath of fealty to him. This didn't directly imply that Harold would support William's claim to the throne, but William used it as his excuse for usurping Harold when he became king. William argued that he was Harold's liege-lord under oath and therefore he should be subject to William's claim to the throne of England. Both men had been encouraged by Edward to believe that they were his desired heir; Harold's father Godwin had effectively ruled England and controlled Edward during the final part of the latter's reign.

          Harald Hadrade's claim to the throne was the most tenuous of the three men: As king of Norway he had conquered Denmark after more than a decade of fighting. Three Danish king's (including the famous Canute) had ruled England and by extension, Harald argued that he, as Danish king by conquest, should follow that line.
          http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

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          • #65
            Tostig only incited Harald Hardraade to invade.

            Hardraade's claim was that he was descended from Canute, who ruled at c1000 (don't know my dates)

            Harold, who succeded Edward the Confessor, around 1060, was appointed heir by Edward (traditionally, new kings were chosen by a council of priests and royal advisors)

            William the Conqueror's claim was that Harold had sworn fealty to him when he was in Normandy, but it was alleged that this was under duress.
            Calling all Designers, the SL CivGroup is open for business!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by GoPostal
              Tostig only incited Harald Hardraade to invade.

              Hardraade's claim was that he was descended from Canute, who ruled at c1000 (don't know my dates)
              Hadrade used the Danish king Canute's kingship of England as the basis of his claim as Hadrade had conquered Denmark. Hadrade was a Norweigan and most certainly wasn't descended from Canute. In fact, IIRC he wasn't even descended from from the King of Norway; the later gave him half his kingdom in recognition of his exploits and he inherited the rest on the King of Norway's death.

              Harold, who succeded Edward the Confessor, around 1060, was appointed heir by Edward (traditionally, new kings were chosen by a council of priests and royal advisors)
              I don't think this is the case, GoPostal. The throne was hereditary but Edward died without an heir. It was claimed that on his deathbed Edward made Harold his heir, just as William claimed that Edward had promised him the throne 10 years earlier IIRC.

              William the Conqueror's claim was that Harold had sworn fealty to him when he was in Normandy, but it was alleged that this was under duress.
              I think I said that above . I think it's safe to say it was under duress, as William held Harold a virtual captive, albeit well-kept one. The contentious part comes from Harold being tricked into swearing alleigance on a hidden relic which William revealed to Harold afterwards. William's claim came from Edward supposedly promising him the throne, and he asserted this superceeded Harold's claim as William was now his liege-lord.

              The council of Eorls and Bishops you refer to (the Witan) was called to assess the merits of the various claims and decided that Harold should be king, I suspect largely because he was the man on the spot, as you said in an earlier post.
              http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

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              • #67
                Originally posted by GoPostal
                Tostig only incited Harald Hardraade to invade.
                Tostig went first to William who sponsored an expedition by Tostig invade England. This ended in disaster and Tostig was driven away; he then tried his hand with Hadrade and accompanied him on his invasion of England.
                http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

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                • #68
                  So, the Nobles will be one civ, allied with Harold Godwinson. He can research a tech called "Call-up Peasant Levies against ____" to get the nobles to fight that nation. He will only control London.

                  Meanwhile, the Normans and Norwegiens will invade and have the option of installing new nobles, triggering war against the Nobles.
                  Vote Democrat
                  Support Democracy

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                  • #69
                    I'm bowing out of this (I did it 8 years ago)
                    Calling all Designers, the SL CivGroup is open for business!

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                    • #70
                      Where I can I get it?
                      Vote Democrat
                      Support Democracy

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                      • #71
                        Can we stop fighting about who has got the more definitive version of British history, and try to come up with something to help this project get away from the (very early) planning stage?

                        I don't like the idea of Harold having to research techs to be able to declare war on people. The game would be far more easy to play if he and his nobles were a single civ, with more than just one city. If the civ needs allies to fight their enemies then they should have to ask and bribe, just like in any other game of Civ.
                        Otherwise, you'd have to have five different techs to be able to declare war on all of the other civs. That would just be infuriating, if you were researching one, and then wanted to declare war on someone else while your scientists were working away.

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                        • #72
                          I don't think we are arguing, fairline knows more.
                          Calling all Designers, the SL CivGroup is open for business!

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                          • #73
                            Don't believe that for a moment - I'm just a know-all. It's an annoying habit of mine
                            http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

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                            • #74
                              Oh, I am too, just not on this. I managed to link Witchcraft to Marilyn Monroe in English today in just 5 steps.
                              Calling all Designers, the SL CivGroup is open for business!

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                              • #75
                                LOL!

                                What that says about JFK is best left unspoken!

                                So, POTUS, any pointers on what units you plan on, or is it too early for that?
                                http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Home
                                http://totalfear.blogspot.com/

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