Red Front 1-5 final beta test here!

[fairline]

I thought Nemo made a version 1.5 or 1.6, or do I have this wrong?

I don't want to critisise too much, but Nemo must have spent 100's of hours on Red Front, with a lot of detailed playtesting. Check out the development thread for some of the detail. I guess my point is that he put a huge amount of effort into getting Red Front right. What do you think you can add to it, and are you intending to put your name to Nemo's scenario, when your additions will be insignificant by comparison to the workload in creating the scenario?

No offense intended, but there have been a number of unauthorised 'updates' of classic scenarios....

[AGRICOLA]

My pet peeve with RED FRONT

I notice that the some unit parameters that I did not think fair in RED FRONT are present in RED FRONT 1.5. What I objected to was that after clearing all enemy units within a couple of squares of a city and with absolutely no fighter aircraft in the area, I still ran the risk of getting my airlift shot down, usually by Wehrmacht SG units. The following quote is taken verbatim from my RED FRONT: Scorched Earth & Partisans posting on the CIV II/Strategy Forum.

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II.7 I have encountered unexpected problems airlifting units between cities that definitely had no enemy fighter planes anywhere near them yet a warning about getting shot down by enemy aircraft appeared whenever an airlift was attempted. I am uncertain whether the author intended this because some units that should be able to shoot down airlifts cannot do so while a rather odd assortment of ground units can. The source of the problem was traced to the roles assigned to certain ground units in the RULES files. The following is a partial list of role codes that determine how the AI plays certain units:

0 = Attack
1 = Defend
2 = Naval Superiority
3 = Air Superiority

As can be seen below, all fighter aircraft have a "3" (Air Superiority) in the third last column in the RULES files. Also, all have the special ability to intercept aircraft in flight. Special abilities are defined by the string of 15 0's and 1's at the end of the line for each unit type. Here, a 1 in the 11th position indicates that the unit has the ability to intercept aircraft in flight. There is no problem with this for fighter aircraft. Surprisingly, neither A.A.Batteries, 88 mm AA Batteries nor Sdkfz-4x20mm Flak can attack airlifts, apparently because they do not have a "3" as their role code.

I-16 Polikarpov, nil, 1,10.,1, 4a,3d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 3, Env, 000000000010001
Me-109 Fighter, nil, 1, 7.,2, 9a,4d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 3, CA, 000000000010001
Fw-190A Fighter, nil, 1, 7.,2,10a,5d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 3, Uni, 000000000010001
LA-5 Fighter, nil, 1, 7.,1, 0a,4d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 3, Mys, 000000000010001
Yak-9 Fighter, nil, 1, 8.,2, 10a,5d, 2h,2f, 7,0, 3, Sea, 000000000010001
Me-262 Jet Fighter,nil, 1, 8.,1, 0a,5d, 2h,2f, 9,0, 3, AFl, 010000000010001

Sdkfz-4x20mm Flak, nil, 0, 5.,0, 0a,9d, 3h,2f, 6,0, 0, Ast, 010000000010000
A.A.Battery, nil, 0, 1.,0, 0a,5d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 1, Too, 010000000010000
88mm AA Battery, nil, 0, 1.,0, 10a,7d, 3h,2f, 8,0, 1, Rob, 010010000000000

However, the ground units listed below do have a "3" in the role code column. Some of these units have a "3" in every RULES file they appear in, others have a "0" or a "3" depending on the season and yet others have a "3" only once and a "0" the rest of the time they appear in RULES files. All of these can attack airlifts although none can attack aircraft in flight.

Hummel, nil, 0, 3.,0, 12a,3d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 3, X3, 000000001000000
Pz38t Light Tank, nil, 0, 4.,0, 9a,4d, 3h,2f, 4,0, 3, Alp, 000000000000000
PzKw V "Panther", nil, 0, 5.,0,12a,10d, 3h,2f, 7,0, 3, CoL, 000000000000000
"Karl" 60cm Mortar,Pot, 0, 2.,0, 18a,8d, 6h,6f,10,0, 3, X3, 000001001000000
Wehrmacht SG, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,4d, 1h,2f, 2,0, 3, E2, 000000001000000
NKVD Trooper, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,6d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 3, no, 000000001000010
Red Guard, nil, 0, 4.,0, 7a,5d, 2h,2f, 2,0, 3, Cmn,000011001000000

For some reason the Civ II algorithm appears to use the role code rather than special abilities flags to determine whether a unit can intercept an airlift. As a consequence, a Pz 38 or a Karl in the vicinity of a Soviet city can shoot down an airlift into or out of that city despite having no special ability to attack aircraft in flight. As none of the ground units listed above has a 1 in position 11, I am almost certain that, unless he was trying to stop most airlifts to or from front line cities, the author of the scenario did not intended that these units should be able to intercept airlifts. I base my conclusion on the both the fact that none of the three types of specialized AA units can shoot down airlifts, whereas the rather motley collection of non-specialized ground units can do so, as well as the fact that there are other inconsistencies in this scenario. For example, for some reason, Tikhvin is not a port city while Kitela, situated on the same body of water, is a full-fledged port.

If desired, the problem can be fixed by editing the RULES files where needed by changing the 3's to 0's for the ground units in question.
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Also, you might want to take a look at the descriptions for Red October Factory, Communist Party and Nazi Party 1933. There is no quantitative information in their descriptions, only qualitative.

With regard to playing RF 1.5, I'm still in shock from the power of the German initial advance. So I'm going to pull a Stalin and spend a day or so trying to figure out whether I prefer to be hung or shot. My situation ain't funny but the scenario looks good.

[Colwyn]

Originally posted by fairline
I thought Nemo made a version 1.5 or 1.6, or do I have this wrong?


No offense intended, but there have been a number of unauthorised 'updates' of classic scenarios....

RF only went to version 1.4.

RF 1.5 was developed by me to combat some of the loopholes that were discovered by players over the last 4 years inc those in the RF democracy game. This is an aditional of probably 1000+ playing hours.

A good player was able to take advantage of these and finish in 1942.

RF 1.5beta is designed for the experienced player or a begineer who doesn't want to beat the scenario in a few games.

[Colwyn]

Re: My pet peeve with RED FRONT

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I notice that the some unit parameters that I did not think fair in RED FRONT are present in RED FRONT 1.5.

Excellent feedback I shall ensure this is rectified in the final version!

[Leonidas]

Colwyn:

Great job so far.

I have played the first few turns and the power of the German onslaught continues unabated.

I can think of no higher compliment to Nemo and his scenario "Red Front" than for you to be adding this "uber" patch for it.

Since all the files you provided need to be put inside Nemo's original 1.4 version (the player must have version 1.4 in order to use the v1.5 patch), it is very clear to everyone that Nemo is the one and only author.

I am sure Red Front 1.5 will now be played as much as when it first came out.

I must have played v1.4 half a dozen times and the game became easy after a while.

Now I am looking forward to having the AI whup me good.

Congrats, and I hope you continue working on it.

Cheers!

[fairline]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Colwyn:

Since all the files you provided need to be put inside Nemo's original 1.4 version (the player must have version 1.4 in order to use the v1.5 patch), it is very clear to everyone that Nemo is the one and only author.

I guess if that's the case I owe Colwyn an apology I assumed that this was a stand alone scenario zip; if its an add on 'patch' then I guess there isn't a problem. Maybe I should have checked the zip before opening my big mouth

[AGRICOLA]

My RED FRONT 1.5 has taken a turn for the worse!!

As no one else has reported this maybe I'm the only one experiencing this problem.

This is the sequence of turns in RED FRONT:
1. German onslaught
2. Soviet "Ghost turn" when only fortified units and partisans can be moved but city production and research can be changed.
3. The Finns take their turn.
4. Soviets get their first full turn.

This is what I'm getting in RED FRONT 1.5:
1. German onslaught
2. Soviet "Ghost turn" when only fortified units and partisans can be moved but city production and research can be changed.
3. The Finns take their turn.
4. A partial German turn that ends with the popup "Following the German attacks.............."
5. Soviets get their first full turn.

During the partial turn the main German activity is around Riga, Brest-Litovsk, Kishinev and Odessa, with a few attacks elsewhere. Fewer than 20 German units seem to be involved although I haven't watched it using CHEAT/REVEAL MAP/ENTIRE MAP.

The net result is that Soviet units are sitting ducks for a second time without having had a chance to move.

Am I somehow bringing this on myself by activating just about all fortified units, moving them towards their destinations, razing roads, killing a few German units and re-taking an undefended Brest-Litovsk during the "Ghost turn"??

Any suggestions?

[Colwyn]

Re: My RED FRONT 1.5 has taken a turn for the worse!!

Originally posted by AGRICOLA


Am I somehow bringing this on myself by killing a few German units and re-taking an undefended Brest-Litovsk during the "Ghost turn"??

Any suggestions?

This occurs b/c of the event files where new units are created, that is why the soviet player gets a ghost turn b/c partisans are created when the germans kill certain units.

I'm working on trying to eliminate the ghost turn for the soviets(as you really shouldn't be doing anything inc moving partisans) by modding the events to not create partisans in turn 1 but that will be post beta 1.5.

Now if during your ghost turn you do something to trigger the creation of AI units(ie kill german units) then thats whey they will get a ghost turn of their own for the newly created units only.

It actually is best not to do any attacking during the ghost turn and officially you should be doing nothing.

[Leonidas]

Two main items:

1) I think it would be great if the unit files could be updated with some of the new unit graphics that have since appeared;

2) Would CivStack (creating all terrain stackable) be useful in this scenario?

I know Nemo complained about the "10 stacked units being killed" problem, as the AI tends to stack its units. This would make the AI far tougher an opponent.

Creating stackable terrain can be done in just a couple minutes using CivStack available at Mercator's site.

[Colwyn]

Worth a look

Originally posted by Leonidas

Creating stackable terrain can be done in just a couple minutes using CivStack available at Mercator's site.

I'll give it a look though it would require a lot of play testing to adjust the # of units on both sides. But yes your right it would be an improvement once balanced.

Can you post the link to download the file here.

[Leonidas]

Re: Worth a look

Originally posted by Colwyn


I'll give it a look though it would require a lot of play testing to adjust the # of units on both sides. But yes your right it would be an improvement once balanced.

Can you post the link to download the file here.

I've attached CivStack. It's a very easy utility.

There may not need to be that much unit balancing, as I prefer the German AI to be very tough and aggressive.

When you use CivStack, don't forget to do the following:

Go into cities.gif and remove the fort graphic, and go to labels.txt and rename the 'fort ' as 'defendable'.

Cheers!

[AGRICOLA]

More puzzled than ever.

Originally posted by Colwyn

Now if during your ghost turn you do something to trigger the creation of AI units(ie kill german units) then thats whey they will get a ghost turn of their own for the newly created units only.

It actually is best not to do any attacking during the ghost turn and officially you should be doing nothing.

I understand what you are saying but I like to save the start situation (i.e. before I do anything at all) for any scenario I play. If, immediately after saving the dismal Soviet starting position in RF 1.5 as "START", I end the turn then everything proceeds normally. However, if I reload "START" or any other June 1941 save file, the Germans get their part turn, even when I've done absolutely nothing except end the turn for a couple of partisans in the Pripet Marshes.

I have re-opened 3 old "START" files from RED FRONT and the same thing happens but only a couple German units become active.

I'm also a bit puzzled by "officially you should be doing nothing" because IIRC Captain Nemo says nothing about the Ghost turn in the README file that lists his no-no's. Nor is there any mention of this in the RF strategy essays in the Art of War. Xin Yu lists a number of things he considers to be "cheats" (BTW, I don't agree with a some of them) but he himself obviously used the Ghost turn to change citizens into Einsteins in order to get the KV-1 tech in August.

I suspect that I may be unaware of Ghost turn discussions on one of the forums. If so, does anyone know where I can find the thread?

[Leonidas]

I didn't know there was a "ghost turn" thread, although you might try searching for discussions about Red Front itself.

[AGRICOLA]

I have no idea whether or not there is such a thread. I was just puzzled by Colwyn's comment that "officially you should be doing nothing" during the ghost turn. He may have meant that he, as the author, considers ghost turn activity to be a no-no.

IIRC, at the beginning of the Red Front Democracy Game, the participants agreed to do nothing during the ghost turn. However, I don't recall that there was a specific reason given for their decision.

I'll follow up on your suggested search unless someone can come up with a quicker answer.

[DarthVeda]

Have you given any thought to rebuilding Red Front on a different map with fewer units?