AI behaving strangely

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by techumseh


You bet! It's good to have another ally.

Jasev, ToT has 96k, as Catfish says. This is 3 times the memory which MGE allocates to events. But it's even more efficient, because you can create as many units as you want (up to 255) in a single event, in multiple locations.

Tot is a great extension of the whole ball game. Huzzah!

But!

A pity only about 3 people play it worldwide, you and Catfish included.

If you recall, I started off making ToT scenarios, then I realised no-one actually cared, because no-one plays ToT.
This is why I switched to MGE.

I would love to see ToT get the fanbase it really deserves.

Despite it's technical brilliance, it had the looks of a warthog, and no-one liked it.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by curtsibling
A pity only about 3 people play it worldwide, you and Catfish included.

If you recall, I started off making ToT scenarios, then I realised no-one actually cared, because no-one plays ToT.

People are set in their ways. What can I say?

[Palaiologos]

Actually i have ToT and play it regulary.

However i wouldn't ever try designing soemthing with it.

[curtsibling]

Catfish:

You cannot deny that less people play ToT than MGE.

I have both versions, and I am on your side that ToT is the superior product on the technical aspects.

But I am a pragmatist.

There is no point in my wasting all those weeks of my life making a scenario that no-one will ever see.

These people are crazy, but they know what they like.

[Catfish]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Catfish:
You cannot deny that less people play ToT than MGE.

No, I agree with you, but I believe ToT could prolong the life of Civ2, providing anyone actually got behind it. I know what these people are like - I was one of them.

Just to give you some background: I used to play Civ2 FW about 3-4 years ago. I dabbled in scenario design and via this I came into contact with veteran Civ2 designer, Harlan Thompson, who had “retired” from Civ2 at this stage. We were originally going to release a new FW version of his Lord of the Rings scenario (I think it's at version 4.1) with graphical upgrades, bug fixes and tweaks here and there.

Harlan came across ToT, decided that this was the way to go and lost interest in the FW version. I suggested that we should release an upgrade for FW before turning to ToT. He argued the benefits of ToT, and initially I wasn't really interested, displaying the same kind of apathy as those around here. Harlan is a persistent bastard, though, and after arguing the merits of ToT, convinced me to go ahead with it. After working on it for a few months, I eventually didn't have time for it any longer. There were also a few things I was dissatisfied with - notably the map - a 31 000+ gigamap of Middle-earth, limitations with the macro language and a few ToT bugs/quirks, which I had never seen documented anywhere, but I have long since forgotten.

I haven't played Civ2/ToT in a long time, but being one of those classic games, you dust it off now and then and give it a run. Whenever I do so, it's ToT with most of the original graphics replaced with this new stuff. I always convert FW/MGE scenarios to ToT using Angelo Scotto's CivConverter utility. Most of the units, icons and people I leave alone, but I absolutely can't stand the 8-bit terrains of Civ2 and I replace them with my 24-bit ones.

So what I'm saying, is that many people are stuck with the mentality I had 3-4 years ago. They've been turned off its ugly vanilla graphics, the slightly different interface and the lack of support from scenario designers. Maybe someone can get the ball rolling, but I suspect this will never happen. It’s likely I’ll hang around for a while, but I too will move on – as you said, there’s not much point releasing resources if no-one’s going to use them. I have worked on 3 scenarios on and off (all for ToT) over the years, so maybe if I pull my finger out, I might finish them – but don’t hold your breath.

[curtsibling]

Funny how you accuse us of apathy!

Well, One half of me is tempted by the mega-events and graphics of ToT:

This my view of the Pros/Cons.

ToT Pros:
Great graphic support.
Large scope for events.
Extra macro options.
Many neat events flags and rules features.
Funky icons interface.
Intuitive left-right mirror images for static units.
Complex but mostly untapped mega-multi map potential.
Tons of UNITS!
An extra era of cities.
Totally customisable unit sounds.
Improved media options.

The Cons:
Dark ugly palette.
No animated battle explosions.
Unreliable leaders2 feature.
Slightly less repsonsive controls.
Crappy 'unit ready' cursor.
Difficult to edit unit bar.
Zero compatibility with MGE. (except via A. Scotto's program)
Less stable program, known to crash for no reason.

And the biggie: A severe lack of user/creator support.

Now the last one there, could maybe be changed.

But it would require a bit of PR work, and some really good scenarios.
Perhaps converting some classic scenarios, and expanding them would be the trick...

I admit I would like to see ToT becoming a player's favourite here on Poly SL...
But to that we must have a plan, and make some seriously addictive scenarios...

What do you think?

[Catfish]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Funny how you accuse us of apathy!

Not you. You're one of the open-minded ones. With regards to Civ2, I'm certainly apathetic - after all I haven't had much involvement with the Civ2 community, until recently.

I agree with all your pros. The big advantage of the expanded rules file is the freedom it gives you with the tech tree. You can potentially allow all civs to receive all tech prerequisites for all units, at the same time being able to restrict unit production via the Units_Advanced section.

The lack of battle animations doesn't bother me, the huge-arse health bar does. This is particularly the case for terrain units. Fortunately Mercator (I bow to this man) has come to the rescue with SpriteGen.

What do you mean about less responsive controls? It's been so long, I can't remember what Civ2 FW was like. Similarly, I'm used to the unit ready cursor. Yes, it bothered me initially, but it's not a problem any more.

ToT is pretty stable for me - I can't remember the last time it crashed of its own accord - usually only when I've got a typo in the rules file. I have, however, experienced what I believe to be memory leaks where when continually loading saved games causes lock up, but this is rare.

There is the additional problem of loading sprites when switching game directory. I forgot about this one until recently because I always turned them off. The other day I was testing out Mercator's SpriteGen and encountered the problem again. It appears that ToT does not flush the sprites from its cache when you change directory. So if you start one scenario and switch to the other, you will get the sprites from the first scenario. AFAIK the only way to clear it is to restart ToT.

It’s been a long time, but from memory, the leaders2 info is permanently embedded in the .sav file the first time the game is saved and can’t be later changed, except by a hack job, courtesy of the Scenario League (qv). I haven’t sufficiently playtested my scenarios, so I can’t comment on whether or not there are further problems. Is this what you are talking about?

I agree with everything else.

Originally posted by curtsibling
But it would require a bit of PR work, and some really good scenarios.
Perhaps converting some classic scenarios, and expanding them would be the trick...

Looking at my ToT directory, I have some 20 scenarios converted, fully or partially. By partially, I mean that CivConverter scenarios have a few issues that need to be resolved; this involves some hex editing and modification of graphics files. So there is a bit of work required.

However, your earlier comment holds true: "...but they know what they like." I wouldn't try and force something on anybody. There's nothing worse than someone knocking on your door trying to tell you what's good for you. I would rather just show them what they are missing.

[curtsibling]

I agree, dude.
True, the crashes are probably owing to a typo or two.
I made various attmepts at getting 'leaders2' to di it's thing for me, but it never did.

I am sure I am missing a 'I' or 'o' somewhere!

I have to admit, I largely tempted by the mass of unit slots available,
and with my fave genre, WW2, it is an essential,
given so much hardware that must be represented from that era.

All this talk of ToT has made me make a resolution, I am going to complete my latest WW2 on MGE, but ALSO do a mega version on ToT...

I will give it the full events, the AVI movies, the works.

Just for the hell of it.

[Cifer Almasy]

Ok, if you are doing this I will buy Civ2 ToT!
If it has that more possibilities I will try it.
Question:
Does TOT also have the 255# city limit?

[techumseh]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Funny how you accuse us of apathy!

Well, One half of me is tempted by the mega-events and graphics of ToT:

This my view of the Pros/Cons.

ToT Pros:
Great graphic support.
Large scope for events.
Extra macro options.
Many neat events flags and rules features.
Funky icons interface.
Intuitive left-right mirror images for static units.
Complex but mostly untapped mega-multi map potential.
Tons of UNITS!
An extra era of cities.
Totally customisable unit sounds.
Improved media options.

The Cons:
Dark ugly palette.
No animated battle explosions.
Unreliable leaders2 feature.
Slightly less repsonsive controls.
Crappy 'unit ready' cursor.
Difficult to edit unit bar.
Zero compatibility with MGE. (except via A. Scotto's program)
Less stable program, known to crash for no reason.

And the biggie: A severe lack of user/creator support.

Now the last one there, could maybe be changed.

But it would require a bit of PR work, and some really good scenarios.
Perhaps converting some classic scenarios, and expanding them would be the trick...

I admit I would like to see ToT becoming a player's favourite here on Poly SL...
But to that we must have a plan, and make some seriously addictive scenarios...

What do you think?

Wonderful idea, Curt! Test of Time is now readily available for 10 bucks US, here: http://download.com.com/3000-2119-10...ml?tag=lst-2-9 So it's available, even in Spain.

Problems with ToT fall into two categories: those easily fixed or just minor, and those more serious and/or difficult to fix. Most are in the first category: all the graphics issues you've mentioned are simple to correct - alternative graphics have been available on the Cradle of Civilization site for a long time.

I really disagree with the argument that there is a lack of user/creator support. The Cradle site is a goldmine for the aspiring ToT designer. And there are a few of us who are more than willing to share what we've learned. Mercator has been almost a saint with his technical knowledge.

The health bar is a damned nuisance, although Mercator (bless his socks!) has come up with a workable solution. He has also cracked the animated sprite file, which opens up a new horizon for unit artists. Rather than use an entire unit sprite, which might include 40-60 cells, he and Boco have found that you can use just the static sprite, which gives 8 views of each unit.

Now before everyone says "There's no damn way I'm gonna draw 8 views of the same unit!", let me remind you that there are lots of Civ3 units that have been made from which these views can be extracted. And they include many current fave's like the Me-262, the King Tiger, and the battleship Yamato. I think the next big frontier for unit graphics may be the 8-view ToT sprite.

Frankly, I think the big barrier to ToT acceptability has been that it's somewhat intimidating to work with. Yes, there are no editors, but more important, it's somewhat complex. I'll argue it was meant to be complex. The designers set out to give scenario designers just about everything they wanted: more and better events, multiple maps, iimpassible terrain, invisible units, etc. etc. IMHO, Test of Time was consciously designed as the ultimate scenario vehicle.

But instead of struggling to learn it's intricacies, many designers prefer to rehash old concepts. With the exception of Exile's development of the made-for-multiplayer scenario in 2002, what significant innovation in MGE scenario design has there been since, say Red Front, River War and Age of Empires, all released around 2000?

I will argue that the possibilities of MGE as a scenario platfrom are pretty much exhausted. Most of what can be done, has been done. Most of the creative energy in the last 2 years has gone into unit art. There's tons of top notch units posted on these forums in the last couple of years, but not much in the way of new guides or tips on innovations in scenario building. MGE may be more popular, but it's obsolete technology. And until Civ3 can actually support real scenarios, ToT is the vehicle for me.

End of rant!

BTW, I wish you guys on the other side of the world wouldn't have these great discussions in the middle of the night!

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Cifer Almasy
Ok, if you are doing this I will buy Civ2 ToT!
If it has that more possibilities I will try it.
Question:
Does TOT also have the 255# city limit?

Good! And yes. Too bad, there's no getting around that one.

[curtsibling]

I wouldn't say MGE is dead yet.
But I will put my money where my mouth is!
My mission in the next month or two is to create a new ToT WW2 scen, with maxed-out events and graphical trimmings.

And if I am satisfied with the result, I will convert stuff like Vendetta to ToT, as well.

[curtsibling]

And I hope our 'ToT evangelists' will help by revealing and releasing all the groovy scenarios they are holding back!

[techumseh]

Soon. I have 2 now, and another nearly done. http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/

[curtsibling]

The Russian civil war scenario is a true classic!

What we need is to integrate the content of ToT and regular CIV2 forums, somehow.

ToT forums are out there in a desolate wasteland, we need to bring them in from the cold!