Vel and Yin Discuss EU

[yin26]

We are both (EDIT: Actually, Vel is Master and Yin is pupil) newbies to the game, and Vel asked me what I don't really like about the game so far (after re-installing and giving it a better chance). I have tried to work some of my criticism in my other thread, but I'm also interested in what Vel has to say...so here's the thread. Others are most welcomed to chime in:

Vel,

I think you hit on the major ones so far. My list would be something like this at this point:

• A lot of little things are an intial turn off. The long load times, the inability to delete saved games in-game, the fact that you 'surrender' instead of exit and have to watch a burning empire each time. Little stuff.
• Inconsistencies all over the place: I have to have ships out of port in order to board troops on them? And yet, colonists manage to just up and run toward the nearest port and *bam* they are off sailing!
• Not being able to explore Terra Incognita with just normal troops seems a strange way to limit the player. I personally just would have made the attrition rates much higher (due to fear or something) rather than basically saying: Our men refuse to go into that uncharted territory! ???
• It takes a good long while to figure out what you have to click to find/manipulate something. Religious tolerance being a good example. I won't go over the entire interface...
• You can sit for entire 1-2 hour sessions with little or nothing happening on a grand scale. This combined with all the above makes the beginning player easily feel: 'Gee, ain't much to this game, and it's all a bit confusing anway.'

That's basically it for now. So what I have done after re-installing is to say: "O.K. This isn't the kind of game where you get immediate satisfaction or can always dictate the pace. Instead, this is a much more subtle game of spending wisely, expanding with caution and looking for exactly the right moment to leverage your power."

Looked at that way, I'm finding the IGC as Spain up to 1533 to be quite fascinating. Paradox has been quite clever in the numerous ways they have kept the player from being able to ignore the big picture. Just one example: France kept really giving me a tough time, and I never seemed to be able to do much damage back when France attacked. So I gave up a province, signed a peace treaty and planned. I diverted more money to my land force and waited. Sure enough, France had pissed off a lot of other people, too, and had even sacrificed some of is own stability. So as I saw France over-extended and some of its cities in riot, I took my chance to attack Navarra (France's allied buffer state) with my now fully replenished forces. Laying seige, I squashed that pesky state like a bug. And France could do nothing about it...and since I didn't attack France directly, I have kept them out of the battle until I am ready for Phase 2.

THAT is the kind of game that EU is...but it takes a while to realize it.

[Velociryx]

::nods:: dead on, brother Yin! And I agree on all counts. The WORST thing for me is the cursedly slow load times, and the odd way that the game just kinna minimizes to the desktop all by itself....GRRR...and it sounds like we have comparable systems. I too, have an 800mhz, 128 megs of ram, yada yada yada, and I experience all the same stuff you've mentioned.

Still, I gotta hand it to the folks at Paradox, they did a lot of things right.

For anybody reading this, if you're looking for a fast-paced game, or a conquest oriented game, this is not for you. There's an internal counter called a "Bad Boy" rating which keeps track of how much territory you grab and how many nations you absorb. Let that get too high, and EVERYBODY will jump you.....yes, you'll be the recipient of a European Gang Bang, and odds are that you will not survive.

GREAT attention must be paid to the diplomatic picture, and the information screens are a HUGE boon. You don't get exact numbers, but you can, for example, see when France is building wampum many new troops, which is probably a forecast of war in the not-too-distant future. Good thing to check every year or so, just to see what's what.

Also, the early game can be very frustrating because there's so much to do and so little money. One way to offset that is to eat a few points of inflation in the early game to get some cash coming in so you can do all the stuff that needs doing to set yourself up well....BUT, inflation will kill you if you're not careful. In my first game, for example, I was doing really well until I ate one too many of the little Germanic states and everybody attacked me. That put me in the position of having to constantly keep a cash-heavy footing, taking out lossa loans and such, and I finally gave up the cause when my inflation hit 93% and I had no additional territories to promote governors in. With inflation that flippin' high, there's just no way to succeed.

Anyway, all that to say, a resounding YES! I find myself in agreement with pretty much everything Yin says here. It's not a game of instant gratification. Given the layers of complexity, the little stuff that gets sooo annoying after a while, and the immense subtlty of the game, it's bound to turn more than a few people off. BUT....if you stick with it, if you forget about instant gratification and such, I think most players will find a lot of style and finesse under the hood.



-=Vel=-
Author of the "Lands of Lorraine" AAR-in-progress

PS: I hadn't thought about the inability to load ships while in port compared to the colonists....excellent point! I think though, in that case, since ships cannot be attacked in port, that particular decision was made for game balance....otherwise, you could protect all your ports forever by installing a smallish garrison, loading them onto ships in port and forgetting them. Enemy can't besiege the castle cos you've got troops in the province, but he can't fight them, because the ships are "in port."

Still, you're right, that IS inconsistent....

[Velociryx]

Notes about exploring terra incognita:

Actually, eventually (land tech 11), your regular troops are able to explore the unknown wilds of the new world. I think this was done to give certain countries their proper historical advantage where new world explorations are concerned, and to "slow the game down" to a degree.

And not to worry...:: in my very first game, I killed Columbus too! LOL.....I didn't know the first thing about attrition, and it came as a rude surprise!

Also, I was recently told that your ships move faster for each level of naval tech you research.....handy, and it makes sense....I just didn't realize it....

-=Vel=-

[yin26]

Wait, you don't sound like a newbie! I should edit my first post...

Could you please help me on the trade aspect? I have no idea what I am doing with it, so I just let the comp go wild, but as you say I must be losing money.

[Velociryx]

LOL....nope, you got it right....still very much a newbie, but after getting badly burned by the computer handling my merchants, I sat down and stared at it until I had it figured out.

First thing: Focus on your own CoT (Andalusia, in Spain's case). Each Center of Trade has 20 "slots." Every merchant you place in a CoT gives you 1/20 (5%) of that CoT's trade value. Each player can have no more than five merchants in a given CoT.

Exception!: Once you reach Trade Level 3, you can gain monopolies at CoT's. To do this, you must successfully place a 6th merchant. Once he's there, you get all the money for the unoccupied slots in the CoT. The best way to clear a CoT out is this:
First, flood it with your own merchants till you get six in there.

Second, take a look at who's got merchants there.

Third, institute a trade embargo on them (note - this will lower your stability unless you do it while at war with the nation in question. It will also give that nation a Casus Belli against you).

Finally, keep flooding the CoT with your own merchants until you've driven off all the competing ones. What you're left with is six merchants in place, and 100% of that CoT's annual trade revenue.

Alternate plan: Don't know if you've read the notes I posted in the "Stuff I've learned" thread or no, but the essence of the trade portion is this - Put a LOT of emphasis on researching trade techs, until you have a clear lead in that department. Once you have a trade tech lead, it's relatively harder for the merchants of other nations to out-compete you. Once you have that lead, you can steadily increase your market presnece in CoT's all over Europe, kicking out rival traders and installing your own. True, you don't get the kind of massive cash that you do by utterly controlling your native CoT, but you also don't have half a dozen countries mad at your for the trade embargo thing....

The Monopolistic approach takes cash and a pretty serious investment in time, since the act of placing a merchant in a CoT takes at least a nominal amount of cash, but if you get the Andalusia CoT's annual value up over a thousand ducats (as you explore more lands and develop new colonies the trade values of those territories are added to your CoT's value), it may well be worth it!

-=Vel=-

[yin26]

I see. VERY helpful post, Vel. Stupid question now: How do I locate all the COTs? Surely there must be some easily read chart or something. I have seen the screen showing how many merchants in what place...do I just toggle from there? And how do I find the most profitable ones besides my own?

If you feel like saying: "Hey, Yin, just play the damn game!" I'll fully understand. Then again, you might need help on that EU strate guide some day, and I can make a mean Table of Contents.

[Velociryx]

Are you kidding? I love this stuff!

Now....as to locating the CoT's. First thing is, you can only see CoT's in areas of the world you have explored. (Though if you wanna, you can hit f12, and type "Columbus" which will reveal the map....then hit f12 & enter to turn the cheat mode off)

Anyway, what you wanna do is, click on the CoT graphic in Andalusia (when you highlight it, it'll say "view CoT information for Andalusia).

Once you click on it, the map of Europe changes to a color-coded map, showing where each territory on the map trades its goods at.

Each CoT is identified by a shield on the map of Europe and has two numbers by it. The first (and larger) number is the annual trade value of that CoT. The second number (in parenthesis), is your annual take from that CoT.

And, I'll take you up on the offer, btw! I think we'd make a kicka$$ team!

-=Vel=-

[yin26]

Cool! I realize I haven't even SEEN that screen yet! LOL By the way, are you planning to buy Civ3 or MOO3? That could really mess up plans for a EU strat guide. I don't plan (honestly) to buy Civ 3 until the Gold edition or whatever. I'm going to watch the first MOO3 reviews carefully. But if that doesn't pan out, I'm in with EU for the long-haul, I think.

Then again, I should at least finish one IGC before planning to name my next child "Universalis," don't you think?

[Velociryx]

::chuckling:: A goodish name for a chil' I must say!

I'll definately buy Civ3, but I'm not yet sure 'bout MOO....I'm planning to adopt your "wait and see" stance on that one, and in the meantime, fill in the days with...EU!

One of the tricky things about writing a strat guide for this game though, is that there's SO much depth....::shakes head:: I dunno....I wrote almost 90,000 words about SMAC/AC....to cover every nuance and aspect and interdependency in this game, it'd take significantly more than that, I think....::shiver:: BUT, once written, and filled up with topics like: "Unlocking the secrets of CoT" and "Smother & Siege" and a zillion other things, I think it'd certainly be a worthy addition to the collection!

-=Vel=-

[yin26]

90,000 words!!!!!!!!!!

I imagine if you begin the daunting task on EU, you'd end up doing all kinds of historical and financial research as well. Would end up looking like a Ph.D. thesis, I think.

Dr. Vel's EU Primer for Diplomats and World Leaders

[Velociryx]

Ya....there'd almost have to be a lot of research, especially in the area of economics....might have to break out my old college texts on the subject and start refreshing my memory....::sigh::

But, I love that kinna stuff, especially if it's all being done in support of a great game, and the more I play EU, the more I'm inclined to put it into that category....there's just so much depth to it!

::grinning:: I like the title, by the way!

(and, I'll be keeping my fingers and toes crossed that you enjoy the Lorraine AAR. If we're not slammed at work tomorrow, I'll copy/paste what I've got so far and post it here)

-=Vel=-
PS - I've never even looked, DOES EU have an MP feature? Hmmm....

[Garth Vader]

My advice for trading is not to try and get a monopoly in any European CoT. There are just too many other countries trading there. After a while a colony will turn into a CoT like Singapore or Isle Royale and they will be worth mucho bucks.

One thing I found out which greatly increased my tech rate was building manufactories in bulk. Wait until you get naval tech 5, and infrastructure 5 (try and get them about the same time). Then divert all cash into the treasury for about 10 years. When you have a load of cash promote governors to get rid of the inflation, and build like 15 manufactories, all at the cheap price. After that I really focus on getting trade to 10, then infra to 10.

[faded glory]

been playing EU for awhile. Especially the Improved GC. What really gets me is how the AI responds. They are very good...almost too good. Simply put ; when things are good, things are good. When things are bad, things are real bad

Ok I have played usaully as smaller nations. I have my best luck with Russia, Sweden, Bradenburg)prussia, and Netherlands. I have failed on so many fronts! For example, I have never united germany. I have tried with Saxony and Bradenburg. No luck, poland will role right in after annexing 4 or 5 catholic countrys So the trick, wait till the basterds become protestants

[Jeje2]

So you tried it again, despite all you rproblems...
... and looks like you begin to understand the impossible...

Would be nice to join in, but have already deleated EU from my CPU...
But keep on writing - it's good to remember the "good old golden days"

[Velociryx]

Wow....interesting notion about mass-producing the Manufactories at the cheaper rate, Garth! I'd not considered that....excellent!

What year (on average) do you finally get started building them tho? How long does it take you to save the money for it?

Faded Glory - I know what you mean....man, the AI is a hawk sometimes....you make one mistake, and they're all over your a$$! I'm really starting to enjoy playing with the nuances of the game tho....I mean, it's fun to get in wars and expand that way, but I'm finding that the more I play, the more I enjoy simply persuing more limited objectives.....playing instrumental roles in breaking up alliances, weakening one group here to strengthen another there....sometimes making land grabs in odd places to further my strategic position (port in the med, an island here, another wine producing territory there....)...good stuff!

-=Vel=-