Playing China

[GePap]

Anyone here finish a whole GP as China? Any suggestions?

Right now, I am about 1478, and I did chose to open up to the world....

[Sandman]

You get clobbered by endless, terrible events towards the end of the game. Try saving up as much money as you can - I'm talking thousands - and also build up a huge reserve of soldiers. Once the revolt risk events start piling up, you'll be unable make money or even recruit. This goes on for decades.

China is no fun, really.

[GePap]

This is the second time I read someone warning about what is about to come-I assume it is their way to simulate the takeove of China by the Manchu. I will prepare-it might be tough, since I am playing with 1.08.

Now, I prefice this by saying this is my firt real serious foray into the EU2 grand campaign, so I have it set on very easy and AI aggresiveness at Coward. I am now at 1601, and since 1478 many things have occured.

I lead or am tied for the lead in land tech, and am second or tied for second in naval tech. I have reached Infra 6 and trade 4. My sliders are fully centralized, innovative and quality, almost fully naval, offensive tech, and leaning towards free yeomen and plutocracy.

I annexed western Manchu, southern Da Viet and half of Brunei. I have almost fully colonized the Philipinnes and and working on the Island of Celebes, and plan hopefully eventually to have all of Indonesia as well (which will mean annexing Brunei, Makassar, Malakassar or whatever its called, and Atjeh. I also hope to Annex Malacca. I have had temporary Monopolies at Shanghai, kansai, Malacca, Guangjing (?) and Delhi. I beat Portugal and retook Guandong after giving it to them as part of openning up to foreign trade fully. I just annexed the eastern provinces of the Changai Khanate. And my intrepid parties, at the costs of tens of thousands of cavalrymen, have explored most of Siberia, including one great party that rode from the city of Harbin to the shores of the Caspian sea. (that, thanks to military access).

So I have 30 years to get ready for the coming storm....

[pg]

heh, i've tried a few times to play china but it's just too easy. i end up quiting like in the 1600s after reaching something like 20+ land/naval and 8+ infra/trade.

one thing you might want to try is to colonize the siberian corridor before russia can. if you can do that you'll be unstoppable(as if you weren't already). i'm surprised you haven't tried conquering nipon, korea, or tibet(this can be quite hard sometimes) as they have the same religion as you do.

[GePap]

I am more interested in watching out for the rebellions. Also, I think heading south is worth better money for the investment. As for the Manchu,I do plan to remove them from play.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by pg
heh, i've tried a few times to play china but it's just too easy. i end up quiting like in the 1600s

But isn't that before when all the 'fun' starts with the Manchus - even if they are completely part of your empire??? (mid-1600s)

[ErikM]

Originally posted by GePap
I am more interested in watching out for the rebellions. Also, I think heading south is worth better money for the investment. As for the Manchu,I do plan to remove them from play.

That won't quite work out in the immediate future, as you will be forced to grant Manchus independence through events (iirc).

It is actually better to keep them alone, as you don't want them to spring back to life at your tech level

China is a monster and it is probably posible to conquer world with them before rebellions even start. But once they start, it is a world of pain.

[GePap]

Well, it's 1641 now, and the 'fun' already begun.

For some reason I had foolishly clung to the date of 1632 as if this was a clear cut date becuase someone in the Paradox forums mentioned it-well, it turns out the fun starts in 1619, so I was a bit unready to confront this.

For those that don;t know, or remember, it starts fo with the Manchu revolt. What I found interesting is that it seemed at the time that choosing to crush them creates an even bigger pain that not-greater loss of stability, greater increase in the revolt percentages, more revolts faster. So I chose not to crush them. My army was not ready, but mmy eocnomy storng enough that all through these first few years of crisis, I was able to raise enough money to fight of the multiple simultanoues revolts. Then comes the White Lotus Cult. Another fun one. This time it is worse to ignore them, so I decided to crush them. BAM, even more revolts and loss of stability. The thing is though, had I chosen to fight the Manchu, I might not have been able to bear the costs of fighting the Cult, and thus be faced with an even bigger mess..

So,I got multiple revolts at home, big revolts, we are talking 25000 rebels sometimes. One by one I beat them back, even the timers 3 coatal provinces all fell at once. The bigger headaches were outside home. A province decided to join my mepire after leaving A turbulent Tibet-this province is nice, but it was racked by revolts. Worse, my colonial empire and my holdings in Indonesia and the Philipinnes were also racked by revolts. Just as the mess begun, most of my small navy had gone down in a brave but foolish race to use up the first explorer I have had since Ze Zheng or whataver died more than 120 years before. And for some reaosn, I could not really built replacement ships quickly, so I lacked the means to send a large enough force to prevent most of my holdings in Vietnam from going over and declaring independence. Eventually I got together a small army that I have had to ferry about all of Indonesia and the Philipinnes curshing tiny rebel bands and reclaiming my colonies.


Thankfully, I was rich enough to avoid the final indignity-the Financial crisis event- its a choice between seeing the base tax value of several provinces drop by -1, or getting 1000 gold, and a huge increase in revolt danger, in actual revolts. If I were about 10 land techs and 3 infrastructure techs back, I am sure my government would have been toppled by now. Thankfully the Chinese chip of state has been strong enough to remain. I expect that hopefulyl by 1675 this whole mess can be put behind me, and I can go back to building my Grand spice island empire.

[Kropotkin]

China eh? So ruling Panama isn't enough for your ambitions these days.

[GePap]

NEVER!

[GePap]

Well, part one of the update.

Ending my last real post, I said that by 1675 I hoped to have everything done with-well, I was a bit pessimistic, since by 1665 the times of trouble were done.

But man oh man, the time from 1641 to 1665 was surely a doozy. By around 1642 there is an army rebellion- one of the last signs of the impending Ming collapse. I decide to fight the traitors: this leads to a new set of massive revolts, which has my army running around. Then comes the BIG one. I am left to chose between maintaining the decrip Ming dynasty, or jumping ship to the Manchu-well, I do the sensible thing and jump ship. Well, in doing so I annex the whole of Manchu at the drop of a hat-and the good part, gain their army of at least 100,000 men, which it turns out I need, cause for the next 10 years plus the revolt risk in most of my provinces is at 20%.

The next 5 years are pure hell. My armies have to shuttle from massive revolt, to massive revolt. Brutal battles and attrition eat away my forces. Whole swaths of the country fall to the rebels, and as Sandman pointed out before, I am unable to raise but 2000 men at a time and only at the capital. Things look dire. At one point, I earned about 20 gold for a census tax..just 20. One of my Manchu provinces declare itself the independent core of a new Manchu state. The souther half of Korea, which used to be part of Manchu, declares itself independent and a new Korea is born. Over the next decade, as events in the richer south eat up my attention, another 3 of my newly gained Manchu provinces succeed from my empire to join this new Manchu, at my tech level!

BUt as I said, thing in the south are more dire. Again, my indonesian and Philipinno provinces are rioled by revolts. Then disaster, one of my 'core' provinces (one which I owned at the very start in 1419), Yunnan, succeeds to join Pegu- talking a manufactury with it. This is something I can't stand. So I use my temporary Causus Belli to declare war. Well, it turns out Pegu was the head of a large regional allience, becuase now I am at war with Pegu and Tibet and Da Viet (which is just as well, becuase without my noticing, another core porvince, Weinshan, had defected to Da Viet). BUt this war turns out to be a godsend in disguise, becuase by raising war taxes, I am finally able to raise large armies again. I first use these armies to regain control of large swaths of my own state. Then, I tear into my enemies, who, being far behind me in tech are at my mercy. As I fight south, two more core provinces defect to the Quainghai (sp?) Khanate. So I declare war on them. And one indonesian colony defects to Malakassar. So I declare war on them.
At the end of all these wars, I regained all provinces that had defected, turned Malakassar into a Vassal and gained one extra province from the Khanate. There was only one bad spot: as you will remember, in the previous round of revolts two of the three provinces of my short lived southern Vietnamese empire succeeded and became Assam, at a high tech level of course. Well, Assam allies itself to the new Manchu during this mess and its troops desroy the token force I had guarding Saigon and the Mekong Delta. In under to lower the terrible war weariness that was helping maintain my revolt risks high I give in and surrender the delta to Assam, sounding the end of my control over any of Vietnam.

But by 1665 everything calmed down.Revolt risks returned to normal (between 0 and 3%), and I begin the task of rebuilding infrastrcuture lost in the south, and to build it in colonies gained. My empire ends up slightly bigger than before, a net gain of about 5 provinces, and ready for the future.

[GePap]

Right now It is about 1750 and what glorious years since the terrible mid-17th century.

Let me begin by going back- as I said, in the mid 1630's I had sent a fleet racing to use up the only naval explorer I had gained in centuries. Well, on this trip I discovered the eat coast of Africa and rounded the cape. Just as my massive revolts are coming to an end, I gain an explorer, who I mounted on a ship to explore some of the land of east africa. I explore a couple of provinces and run into the Zanj, who control modern Kenya and Tanzania. I open good relations with them.

By the 1670's I gained the galleon type and the ability to discover land provinces by just occupying the sea space next to it. So I explore more of east africa, the indies, and south india. I set up a small colony in east africa. I continue my indonesian empire, sometimes fighitng back fierce locals. To my embarrasment, I finally notice that southern India is empty! and open for colonization. So I decide to make Southern India Chinese. For the most part I succeed though the French got to one province first. I also make Bombay a Chinese port. Now, I had ports in India and East Africa. My eocnomy was roaring again, and I was advancing quickly in tech, approaching 30 land tech and 25 sea tech while eveyone else, even those states who gained my tech level when the broke off, making them second in tech, ahead of European states, fall behind.

Then I notice a minor pop-up. Morocco declares its independence from Songhai. This has me puzzled. I had not been paying much attention to the outside world during the times of trouble, but to hear that an African power held north africa, well, that was news. So I check it out and decide to make good relations with Songhai to exchange maps and, I guess, learn all of west Africa. Well, for cheap maybe 300 gold total, I make myself their best friend and we exchange maps. And boy, what a deal! It seems at some point Songhai traded maps with Spain or someone, becuase all of a sudden, not only do I gain knowledge of western Africa, but of America! In one fell swoop I save myself decades of planned exploration.

BY this time I have the ability to explore with my armies and navies, so I decide to explore America further. I establish relations with the American states. Spain had been rather annemic, becuase both the Aztec and Inca empires, even if horribly backward in tech, remain alive, and I trade maps with the Inca to discover large swaths of South America. Most excitingly, I find that the Bayou is empty-so I land an expedition of brave Chinese who explore the southwest, and the midwest, finding such strange lands as Missiouri and Illinois. I also start a colony, making sure New Orleans is instead New Shanghai.

So, at this point, 1750, China sits on top of the world. Steam power and protectionism have been discovered, and by 1800 I shall be pre-industrious and trade liberal. I am rushing towards the Demographic expansion and the ability to raise mass armies. My navies are decades ahead of anyone else, as are my armies.

Having survived the mess that is the fall of the Ming Dynasty, China sits poised to remain the premier world power, and finally has the power to be a power worldwide.

ON a minor note, the world as a whole is certainly a strange place: The Ottoman empire, which had done OK for the most part in the game is falling apart, with plenty of new independent Balkan states. Th Malmelukes remain much unchaged, BUt Persia has done rather well for itself. Poland remains huge, but roiled in difficulty. Spain has stangnated badly, its american empire never gaining control of the richest portions of the Americas, its inflation at 240% (while mine is now at 9%!). Songhai as a powerful West African muslim empire. Austria is huge and controls most of Central Europe. Russia does OK, but is hemed in by a large Poland, a powerfull Sweden, and a whole host of minor states eastward. Denmark has a substantial set of African colonies, Bavaria owns a tidbit of Indonesia. France and Britain vie for control of north America, with France having a bit more than historically "accurate". IN the east, Thainland (I won;t try to spell the actual name) controls a huge southeast Asian empire, Assam swallowed my Cambodian Vassal. Jodphur is falling Apart, and the Moghul empire never took Delhi, and is now a single province.

Finally, about 50 years ahead of time, a few new American republics have been born. Haiti declared its independence, though it was still second. First was Colombia. What is perhaps ironic, given my being a Panamian, is that Colombia declared its independence controlling only one province. Yes, Panama.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
. Well, Assam allies itself to the new Manchu during this mess and its troops desroy the token force I had guardingSaigon and the Mekong Delta. In under to lower the terrible war weariness that was helping maintain my revolt risks high I give in and surrender the delta to Assam, sounding the end of my control over any of Vietnam..

this is striking.

[GePap]

If I were not still trying to regain control of my own country, I would have fought this. It wasn't worth it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
If I were not still trying to regain control of my own country, I would have fought this. It wasn't worth it.

and yet after losing Viet Nam, you went on to global dominance. Evidently you made the wise choice.