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EU2: the most ahistorical game ever!

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  • EU2: the most ahistorical game ever!

    In my current game, playing the Uzbek Khanate in the EEP GC, I'm experiencing the biggest sum of improbabilities I've ever seen together in one game. You can see a screenie of Europe below, fortunately of bad quality due to my conversion from bitmap to jpeg.

    Aragon has not united with Spain.
    France has been defeated by England and a monster Burgundy, and has not been inherited by Austria.
    Hungary has not been inherited by Austria or the Ottoman Empire. (also not 25 years after I took this screenie)
    Lithuania has not been inherited by Poland.
    The Ottoman Empire has been crushed by the Mamelukes (at one point they also had Smyrna and Macedonia) after a good initial expansion phase, and Byzantium had a Renaissance.
    Also Russia was formed by Suzdal instead of Muscovy.
    And to add to the list of improbably events, China chose to open up in the Zheng He event, putting them in the muslim techgroup. As a consequence China has the highest landtech of the world, and all other muslimtech countries are hardly lagging behind the latins. I'm certainly not complaining.

    So can anyone beat this list of improbablities? Human influence doesn't count of course: if so, I could add the non-existence of Persia and the Mughal Empire to the list.

    (Darn: I had to cut the screenie in two due to the large size. )
    Attached Files
    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

  • #2
    Blah!
    Attached Files
    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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    • #3
      My current HOI 1.05 game (I'm playing Yugoslavia with hardest difficulty settings) is quite interesting. After I declared war on Italy in 1936 (and annexed it few month later). France and its allies declared war over Germany and...survived. The most funny thing that currently is 1938, Poland enered the war and Polish armies...reached Berlin Germans were unable to conquer France and currently defending their capital from Polish invaders.

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      • #4
        Theres a difference between an alternative history game, and a fundamentally ahistorical game.

        In an alternative history game, different strategies from OTL (orginal time line - ie actual history) should generate different results (IE if im playing Germany in 1914, and i dont invade Belgium, it makes sense that British intervention is delayed) It may also have reflect as random events that were genuinely random, like weather.

        On the other hand if there are rules that make it possible to do things that probably werent possible, or vice versa, now thats a problem.


        I would wager that each of the royal marriages that didnt happen in your game, was quite capable of not happening. Although one would expect to see some OTHER royal marriages resulting in state linkages instead - did that happen?

        England and Burgundy beating France at the end of the 100 years war seems not only plausible, but likely - what happened in OTL (english throne inherited by weak minded minor, France to victory by teenaged girl on religious mission) is whats implausible.


        Im more concerned about HOI - Yugoslavia beating Italy in the 1930's may be feasible, but annexing it??? Sure to get a massive rebellion that Yugoslav army cant control. Now THATS a problem - sounds like HOI is ahistorical (ive heard that the defense of HOI is that it was basically designed to be played as a major power, and when you play as a minor power, weird stuff happens)
        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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        • #5
          HOI, as EU, is designed to be open-ended. Work is contiinuously done to reduce unrealistic effects but there will always be some amount of it due to the nature of the games.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by lord of the mark
            Im more concerned about HOI - Yugoslavia beating Italy in the 1930's may be feasible, but annexing it???
            What's the problem? Currently is 1939 in my game and besides Italy, Yugoslavia already annexed Bulgaria, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Turkey, Persia and Spain. My ships are heading to Brazil now.

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            • #7
              Theres a difference between an alternative history game, and a fundamentally ahistorical game.
              I know I know. I was first planning to write "alternative historical" to reflect my opinion that history isn't written in stone. But on second thought that would've made the thread title too long, so I decided against it.
              Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
              Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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              • #8
                Aragon has not united with Spain.
                Not that uncommon. Really, the fact that Aragon united with Castile but Portugal didn't was a fluke of history, it would be plausible for them both to have joined or neither.

                France has been defeated by England and a monster Burgundy, and has not been inherited by Austria.
                Monster Burgundy is pretty rare, but France getting beaten up isn't. Neither of those things are historically implausible, If Henry V hadn't died in battle all of northem france might be english today, and Burgundy could control all the rest except Guyenne. Several Burgundian dukes had dreams of recreating the Carolingian Middle Kingdom stretching from the low countries to the Mediterranean, so IMHO they should actually be given cores on Savoy and maybe some others.

                Hungary has not been inherited by Austria or the Ottoman Empire. (also not 25 years after I took this screenie)
                Hmmm...unlike the others so far, this one actually does require the AI to take an unhistorical event choice. Pretty unusual (and the same thing happening in the Machiavelli MP game caused a big discussion over giving Austria italian culture.) BTW, I don't think the Ottomans can ever inherit Hungary.

                Lithuania has not been inherited by Poland.
                It's not supposed to happen yet (or even 25 years after the screenshot)! It doesn't happen until around 1570!

                The Ottoman Empire has been crushed by the Mamelukes (at one point they also had Smyrna and Macedonia) after a good initial expansion phase, and Byzantium had a Renaissance.
                The OE flopping is common, as is the Mamelukes thriving. Ahistorical and arguably implausible but not something that makes your game uinque . Byzantium thriving is though.

                Also Russia was formed by Suzdal instead of Muscovy.
                Uncommon but by no means implausible. That Musovy united Russia instead of any of the others is as arbitrary as Holland dominating the Netherlands, Castile uniting Spain, Myanmar among all the little Burman minors uniting Burma, England becoming protestant, etc. IMHO, there are too many biases that help Muscovy.

                And to add to the list of improbably events, China chose to open up in the Zheng He event, putting them in the muslim techgroup. As a consequence China has the highest landtech of the world, and all other muslimtech countries are hardly lagging behind the latins. I'm certainly not
                It's just one ahistorical event choice that historically is very plausible. If China had opened up, they would most likely be the commercial if not also technological superpower of the world.

                One last thing: When you play as a non-Euro, I've found that Europe tends to get pretty screwy. I've seen either events not firing (even if they fell asleeep when I reloaded they should have come up) or soem quite ahistorical options being chosen (eg no CoT in Anglia, no CoT in Thrace and OE capital staying in Anatolia leading to Venice taking Thrace, etc). This is a real problem that should be fixed, but IMHO ahistoricalness or even ocassional implausibility is OK.

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                • #9
                  Several Burgundian dukes had dreams of recreating the Carolingian Middle Kingdom stretching from the low countries to the Mediterranean, so IMHO they should actually be given cores on Savoy and maybe some others.
                  Well in the EEP there actually are two events that can give Burgundy cores on the Middle Kingdom, but Austria first has to pick a "B" choice for it to happen, so it's quite unlikely.

                  BTW, I don't think the Ottomans can ever inherit Hungary.
                  With all those changes to the Hungarian event sequence, I'm not sure anymore what is supposed to happen, but I think that in the EEP Hungary normally gets inherited by the Ottoman Empire in 1540, thereby releasing the vassal of Transsylvania.

                  It's not supposed to happen yet (or even 25 years after the screenshot)! It doesn't happen until around 1570!
                  At the current point in my game 1570 has just passed, and guess what: Poland chose "Keep it a loose confederation.", leaving Lithuania independent. Not that an inheritance would have helped Poland a lot, since Lithuania is only two provinces big at this point.

                  Uncommon but by no means implausible. That Musovy united Russia instead of any of the others is as arbitrary as Holland dominating the Netherlands, Castile uniting Spain, Myanmar among all the little Burman minors uniting Burma, England becoming protestant, etc.
                  Really? I thought Musocvy and Novgorod were the only two with enough power to unite Russia.


                  Anyway, I know most of what happened is historically plausible, and that there isn't a single thing that makes my game "unique". However this is the first time I have seen so many "historical alternatives" combined in one game.
                  Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                  Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                  • #10
                    Well, it actually IS historical in some sense... History is a matter of coincidents... But some situations are funny. Of my games;
                    -byzantine empire reborns. Its progress into Balkan is
                    slowed by me, but it takes all modern day Greece and
                    Albania, conquers entire Anatolia and most mamluk
                    posessions, conquersTunis and is about to crush Persia
                    when I dissolve our alliance and cripple it.

                    -Pomerania as the great Baltic power, with large
                    posesions in modern-days germany and Netherlands,
                    leading succesfull wars against Poland.

                    -Klewe. This imperialistic state conquered half of
                    Germany and enitre Netherlands, not to mention parts
                    of France

                    -mighty Novogrod annexed Denmark (with Norway)

                    -Twer (Kalinin) conquers novogrod and leads succesfull
                    campaigns against Moscow

                    -Aztec empire attacks Spain and takes a province with trade center from them.

                    -Lithuania inherits Poland, Brandenburg and Hungary. Its further progress is stopped by me. But I got really scared.

                    -China has colonies as far west as Senegal

                    -Albania has colonies

                    -Spains turns to protestantism as one of the first states in Europe

                    -one of the Indochina states unites entire region and expands
                    "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                    I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                    Middle East!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Serb
                      My current HOI 1.05 game (I'm playing Yugoslavia with hardest difficulty settings) is quite interesting. After I declared war on Italy in 1936 (and annexed it few month later). France and its allies declared war over Germany and...survived. The most funny thing that currently is 1938, Poland enered the war and Polish armies...reached Berlin Germans were unable to conquer France and currently defending their capital from Polish invaders.
                      Very nice

                      It's not supposed to happen yet (or even 25 years after the screenshot)! It doesn't happen until around 1570
                      Not quite. Complete unification wasn't reached until 1791... First union and "application" of Lithuania to Poland took place in late XIV century (I'm pretty ashamed, but I never remember if it, the union of Krewo, took place in 1384 or 1385), and though practically Lithuania reamained separate, creating a common Polish-Lithuanian civ wouldn't be bad from the start of the game.

                      Monster Burgundy is pretty rare
                      It became a great power in each of my games.

                      Really? I thought Musocvy and Novgorod were the only two with enough power to unite Russia.
                      Nope. The greatest Moscovite Russian opponent was
                      Twer in fact. At the start.
                      "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                      I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                      Middle East!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hmm, now I look back to this thread, from the title thread alone one could think that I'm criticizing EU2.
                        Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                        Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                        • #13
                          Your handle didn't allow that thought.
                          "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                          I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                          Middle East!

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                          • #14
                            Oh, except for the wrong cultures and provinces, a giant mistake is to make Mamluks Shiis... Also, Persia wasn't completely shii at the time. But mamluks... gimme a break.
                            I guess they needed to make more than one shii civ...
                            But...
                            Also, a common persian-mamluk state stretching from Tunisia to India was something strange for me.
                            "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                            I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                            Middle East!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Heresson
                              Oh, except for the wrong cultures and provinces, a giant mistake is to make Mamluks Shiis... Also, Persia wasn't completely shii at the time. But mamluks... gimme a break.
                              I guess they needed to make more than one shii civ...
                              But...
                              Also, a common persian-mamluk state stretching from Tunisia to India was something strange for me.

                              do they make Mamelukes Shia? sounds like theyre mixing Mamelukes up with earlier Fatimids, who were Shias and covered just about the same territory (though population was mainly Sunni, IIRC)
                              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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