Top: Game top list.

[Adagio]

The reason why I think it should count as the same game:

Isn't the addon about the same thing as the game anyway? Addons doesn't change gameplay (sequels do... or at least "can do"). Addons (mostly) only add things (e.g. like new objects to build, or new things to do, but they always keep the gameplay the same... and they doesn't change the graphics either).

I have yet to see people who buys a game, just because they like the addon, but not the game.

I see addons as only able to refresh the release date of the game, and that way the game survives longer (e.g. The Sims: if it wasn't because of the addons, the game would have been forgotten long time ago... but it's not like the addons makes the game funnier... sure you have new objects, but new objects only keeps the game alive, it doesn't change the gameplay)

What is your reason to have it your way?

[Tamerlin]

You are right ADG, a game with an addon is still the same game but it can also be quite different. Take SMAC and SMACX, the addon adds a new dimension to the game and introduces new elements. Is this still the same game? Definitely yes! But if we ask the SMAC community, I am sure many are only playing SMACX and don't play "vanilla" SMAC anymore. At least I think so...

As far as People's General (PeG) is concerned, I am playing the original game and the WWII mod converting Panzer General 2 to PeG. I am nonetheless considering People's General as a different game than People's General: World War 2. I agree this is very subjective and that it is very difficult to judge if an addon is just improving the original game or really adds something new. If we consider Civ3: Play the World you will find as many players flaming the addon as players praising it.

If the players only vote for the addon it allows them to rate it themselves and express their personal taste independently of the original game. They are then the only judge of its real value and of the fun it adds to the original game. Of course, this is only my opinion and many of your points are perfectly valid.

[Adagio]

ok, well I haven't played SMAC or SMACX, nor have I played People's general or that WWII thingy, so I can't say they added much more to the game, than normal addons do... but for those addons I have seen, there's nothing "special". Sure, it's better to play a game with an addon, than not, but that's about the same for all addons. I have yet to see an addon, where it's more fun to play the game without an addon. So I'd say, the credit should go to the game. And an addon isn't that much difference from the original game

Also if we take a look at the extreme situation with The Sims. They have like 5-6 addons. Let's see, there's some players who has only played the original game, and want to vote for that one, while other players have only played the first addon, and wants to vote for that one, while more players have played the second addon, and wants to vote for that one... I don't know about you, but I think it's too many "different" votings, for basicly the same game...


But I believe it will also make more confusion on what to cast the vote to, since there's many people who doesn't read the rules, before voting, so I guess many people don't know what to vote for, and therefore they cast some "wrong" votes... That's why I try to make it as simple as possible (Sure, it's hard to judge on what's more simple, but I believe my way is more simple)

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by ADG
But I believe it will also make more confusion on what to cast the vote to, since there's many people who doesn't read the rules, before voting, so I guess many people don't know what to vote for, and therefore they cast some "wrong" votes... That's why I try to make it as simple as possible (Sure, it's hard to judge on what's more simple, but I believe my way is more simple)

You are absolutely right, the only problem I can see with addon refreshing a release date is that it favors the game produced by big companies with the financial clout to release many addons while some little gems created by small companies (Space Empires IV Gold by Shrapnell Games for example) will be removed from the voting list much more quickly.

On the other hand an addon means a game is alive and that is an important thing to bear in mind. But in order to be fair shouldn't the major mods created on the net be considered as addons as far as voting and "refresh" are concerned (I have CtP2 and its regularly updated mods in mind)...

Of course defining what a major mod is or is not is once again subjective and can lead to more complications.

To answer this questions there is another thing I think is important: what is the goal of this vote?

- Listing and ranking the games that appeal to the Apolyton community: addons and mods should be counted and should "refresh" the release date.
- Listing and ranking the games published in 2002-2003: you can decide not to bother about the addons and mods...

Tell us what is the goal you seek and the answer will come naturally, at least I think so...

But what the others are thinking about this ?

[Adagio]

For me the goal is this:

Originally posted by Tamerlin
- Listing and ranking the games published in 2002-2003: you can decide not to bother about the addons and mods...

And I'd say mods isn't a game, or even an addon. If the game company made the game to be changed, then I'd say that should be a bonus for the game. Otherwise we'd have to have 10+ different ctp games on the list:

ctp with mod X
ctp with mod Y
ctp with...
...

This makes it more... un-simple...


But your point about the smaller games wont have a change with my idea, doesn't work... as I see, your idea makes those smaller games to be chance-less:

In my idea, when you vote for e.g. ctp, you vote for a game + addons + mods = 1 vote

In your idea, you can vote for the game (if the game has been released in these years... *) + you can vote for the many different mods + you can vote for the different addons = many votes

And the more votes, ending up to one game, there's less votes back, to vote for other games...

* But even without having the game released these years, you'll still be able to vote for the addons + mods released these years, which still refreshes the game release date, but gives the possibility to cast the vote on many different addons/mods released these years...

[Skanky Burns]

Voting Has Ended!

This is the final list:

Rank	Game / Series						Total Points

1	Civilization - 						611

2	Call to Power -						312

3	SMAC -							254

4	Final Fantasy - 2,2,10,2,10,6,3,3,6,3,2,10,6,10,4,10,6	95

5	Master of Orion -					94

6	HoMM - 3,6,3,6,6,6,4,4,2,4,3,6,3,3,3,5,6,3,6,4		86

7	Sim City - 3,4,3,3,10,3,4,2,6,4,6,4,6,5,6,4,2,2,2,4	83

8	Age of Kings - 6,1,2,6,2,6,10,4,6,4,5,4,6,6,4,3,2	77

9	Command and Conquer - 10,4,6,4,2,3,1,10,3,2,3,2,3,4,3	60
9	Mario - 10,10,10,4,3,3,6,4,10				60

11	Fallout - 3,2,4,6,3,4,3,4,5,6,3,2,6,6			57

12	Championship Manager - 4,10,10,6,6,6,4,6		52

13	StarCraft - 10,4,2,4,1,3,10,3,4,4,4			49

14	Baldur's Gate - 6,2,3,6,3,6,1,10,4,2,2			45

15	Diablo - 4,6,3,2,3,10,4,4,2,3,3				44
15	Europa Universalis - 10,2,10,3,6,5,4,1,3		44

17	Railroad Tycoon - 6,6,6,6,6,2,4,3,4			43

18	Master of Magic - 4,4,4,2,6,4,6,6			40

19	Deus Ex - 6,6,10,6,3,3,1				35

20	Warcraft - 6,6,10,3,2,4,2,4				37

21	Mule - 10,10,6,6,1,3					36
21	Panzer General - 2,6,4,5,3,6,6,4			36

23	Caesar - 10,3,4,4,4,4,4					33
23	Ultima - 10,10,6,4,3					33

25	XCom - 6,3,2,2,6,10,2,1					32

26	Doom - 6,2,4,10,2,3,4					31

27	Grand Theft Auto - 2,2,10,3,2,5,2,3			29

28	Commandos - 4,3,10,2,4,2				25

29	Shining Force - 6,10,2,6				24

30	Monkey Island - 2,1,10,2,4,3				22

31	Morrowind - 4,10,4,3					21
31	Quake - 4,4,10,3					21

33	Duke Nukem - 3,4,10,3					20
33	Suikoden - 10,10					20
33	Worms - 10,6,2,2					20

36	Thief - 3,4,4,3,3,1					18

37	Jagged Alliance - 3,6,6,2				17

38	Wizardry - 10,3,3					16

39	HalfLife - 4,4,3,4					15
39	Pirates - 6,3,6						15

41	Resident Evil - 6,2,2,3					13

42	Settlers - 6,6						12

43	Frontier - 3,4,4					11
43	Goldeneye - 2,6,2,1					11
43	Ogre Battle - 2,3,6					11
43	Steel Panthers - 4,3,4					11
43	Warlords - 2,2,1,6					11

48	Birth of the federation - 10				10
48	Pharaoh - 10						10
48	Riven - 10						10
48	Unreal - 4,4,2						10
48	Williams Arcade's "Defender" series - 10		10

53	ADOM / Nethack / Rogue - 2,2,2,2,1			9
53	Emperor - 6,3						9
53	Homeworld - 6,1,2					9
53	Might and Magic - 2,4,3					9
53	Sensible Soccer - 2,4,3					9
53	Total Annihilation - 3,3,3				9

59	Free Civ - 8						8
59	Medal of Honor - 2,3,3					8
59	Planescape: Torment - 4,4				8
59	Rollercoaster Tycoon - 4,4				8
59	Wing Commander - 4,4					8

64	Colonization - 3,7					7
64	Metal Gear Solid - 3,4					7
64	Sims - 2,2,3						7
64	Xenogears - 1,6						7

68	Fifa Soccer - 3,3					6
68	Gabriel Knight - 6					6
68	Hidden and Dangerous - 6				6
68	Kirby - 6						6
68	Mega Man - 2,4						6
68	Moraff's Revenge - 6					6
68	Operation Flashpoint - 6				6
68	TacOps - 6						6
68	Tanks! - 6						6
68	Toejam and Earl - 6					6
68	Tribes - 6						6

79	Chrono Trigger - 2,3					5
79	Stronghold - 3,2					5
79	Zeus - 2,3						5

82	Castlevania - 4						4
82	Dragon Warrior - 4					4
82	Dungeon Keeper - 4					4
82	Freespace - 4						4
82	Links - 4						4
82	Madden Football - 2,2					4
82	Max Payne - 4						4
82	NHL - 4							4
82	People's General - 4					4
82	Perfect Dark - 3,1					4
82	Prince of Persia - 4					4
82	Shenmue - 4						4
82	Soul Blade - 4						4
82	SoF - 4							4
82	Space Empires - 1,3					4
82	Star Trek Away Team - 4					4
82	System Shock - 3,1					4
82	Total War - 4						4
82	Tropico - 4						4
82	Zelda - 4						4

102	Archon - 3						3
102	Axis and Allies - 3					3
102	Centurion defender of Rome - 3				3
102	Descent - 3						3
102	Dungeon Master - 3					3
102	Emperor of the Fading Suns - 3				3
102	Everquest - 3						3
102	Exile - 3						3
102	Frequency - 3						3
102	Heart of Darkness - 3					3
102	Kings Quest - 3						3
102	Machiavelli the Prince - 2,1				3
102	Marathon - 3						3
102	Micro Machines - 3					3
102	Nibbles - 3						3
102	Outcast - 2,1						3
102	Theme Park - 3						3
102	V-Rally - 3						3

121	Abe's Odyssey - 2					2
121	Angband - 2						2
121	Battle Isle - 2						2
121	Civil War: Generals - 2					2
121	Combat Flight Simulator - 2				2
121	Commander Keen - 2					2
121	Creatures - 2						2
121	Dark Forces - 2						2
121	Defender of the Crown - 2				2
121	Empire - 2						2
121	Grand Prix - 2						2
121	Harpoon - 2						2
121	Hitman - 2						2
121	Imperialism - 2						2
121	Independence War - 2					2
121	Militarism PBeM - 2					2
121	Mindtown Maddness - 2					2
121	Myth - 2						2
121	Pro Evolution Soccer - 2				2
121	Romance of the Three Kingdoms - 2			2
121	Star Ocean - 2						2
121	star Trek Armada - 2					2
121	Stars! - 2						2
121	Syndicate - 2						2
121	Tie Fighter - 2						2
121	Tomb Raider - 2						2
121	V is for Victory - 2					2
121	Wario - 2						2
121	X-Wing Alliance - 2					2

149	Anno 1602 - 1						1
149	Baseball Mogul - 1					1
149	Dark Age of Camelot - 1					1
149	Lemmings - 1						1
149	Medieval Total War - 1					1
149	Shogun - 1						1
149	Stonekeep - 1						1
149	Streets of Rage - 1					1
149	Twisted Metal - 1					1
149	You Don't Know Jack - 1					1

[Anguille2]

HEY...why didn't took my votes?

[Skanky Burns]

Added now.

[Adagio]

Hey Skanky, I think it's almost time to start the "Top games 2002/2003" thread Or do you wait until there has been released some games this year?

Anyway, I don't think I'll cast my vote, before SimCity 4 has been released

[Skanky Burns]

I think we should start off with the top games from 2001/2002, considering that we are only 3 days into 2003 (and most of the world is less than 3 days into it)

The new Voting thread is now open.

[Adagio]

Ok, that might be a better way to do it



Hey... that means I can't vote for SimCity 4 until next years voting

[Skanky Burns]

The voting will only go for a maximum of 3 months so after that, who knows what we will be voting for?

[Adagio]

Ok

[Wise Ass]

Originally posted by ADG


And exactly how many times, do you want ctp do be on the list?

If there were a six or seven spot it might have hit one of those too, if you want another game, then I supposeTropico can have it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

1.Smac-x
2. WarlordsIII
3. Civ 2 (MGE)