Bridge players game arranging thread

[Urban Ranger]

My defense plan: cash the heart ace and return a club. If declarer doesn't have the ace of clubs, he's in big trouble. Now he has shown 5 spades and 3 hearts, so his distribution is either 5-3-2-2 or 5-3-3-1.

Either way he will have to play the ace (unblock the suit in case of a doubleton).

[Bird]

I'll wait for GP's analysis before commenting. Might take a while, though. It is the weekend, after all.

[Urban Ranger]

Dammit GeePee, get your butts in gear

[Urban Ranger]

Com'on GP, I know you are out there.

[TCO]

Sorry about the abscence. I'm such a wimp amongst you sharks. But, ok...I will jump back in the ocean! I know UR has been already answering this at an expert level. I'm not going to look at his stuff and just take a shot on my own.

Thinking defense, I have 4 dependable tricks: 2sp, h, c**

**Q of c pretty likely to make.

I need to get one or two more. either another h trick or 2, from p. So I need to play hearts suit correctly.

If partner has kxxx, than I'm set to get 2 h tricks, no matter what. And in fact, can make 3 tricks by ducking the first round and than playing A and leading over to p. Ducking also might have the advantage of removing an entry from dummy.

If p has qxxx, than I can make 2 tricks by playing my ace and than returning h twice. If I were to duck that round, I would only get 1 h trick.

So it seems that I should take the trick with the ace of h

Now, stepping back and looking at the hand from declarer perspective.

He's got something like:

him dummy
sp Jxxxx Ax
h Hxx J9x
d AKxx J9
c A KJ7xxx

where H is the k or q. I'll assume that he has to have at least one club, the ace. Or we are home free. One or 2 of the diamonds might be clubs.

So he's got 5 quick tricks in aces and kings.

one of the hearts is certain to make. So that's 6.

If he's got the 10 of diamonds, than he's got a third diamond (and fourth!) trick since the finnesse will work. If he lacks the 10, meaning p has it, than he can still get 3 tricks from the suit, if he has the 7. If p has 107xx, than decl can only make 2 tricks in the suit. (So that's 6-8)

Since def spades are 3-3 (he doesn't know this of course, but they are, and percentages would argue for an even split) He should be able to make at least 3 sp, maybe 4. (that's 2 more there, bringing him up to 8-12....ARRGH...this is getting silly.)


As far as clubs go, def are divided 4-2, (he doesn't know that of course). With my q8 above his j7, it looks like he has to let me have at least 2 clubs before he would be able to cash the last 2 small clubs.

(this gives him 10-14...lol...you can see that this kind of analysis is a bit beyond me...and why I avoided the thread...)


Let's look at it in terms of losers, from decl point of view:

-He's got 1-2 losers in sp to develop that suit.
-He's got 2 losers in clubs to develop that suit (he doesn't know that, but he does). Actually if he's got the 10 or 9 in his hand...and a 3 card or shorter diamond suit, than he's only got 1 cl loser. Of course, that would mean he's not gonna score much in diamonds...(3 max)
-He's got at least 2 losers in h.
-He's got 0-2 losers in d
-He's got 2 losers in clubs to develop that suit (he doesn't know that, but he does). Actually if he's got the 10 or 9 in his hand...and a 3 card or shorter diamond suit, than he's only got 1 cl loser. Of course, that would mean he's not gonna score much in diamonds...(3 max)

Let's look at transport from hand to hand.

From himself to dummy he can use sp to get over. And (if he has less than 4 d, he can use a club to get over.)

From dummy to himself, he's got a club cross-over and he's got a diamond cross-over. All in all not so great considering he needs to take losers in both sp and clubs to develop them.

So, I guess I'll play my ace of hearts. Then what? Not a club return cause that is a free finness. (if opp has Ax). Not a sp return cause that gives him one of my honors, provided he plays the j from his hand. H return doesn't seem so crappy, although there is a chanc of giving him an entry to dummy in the form of the J of h...doesn't seem like such a danger, if p leads back a h immediately, before opp has started developing clubs. Other choice would be to lead back a diamond. This gives him a free finnesse even if p had had 107xx. So I guess, I will just return a small heart.


Sorry that this is so long. I really did my best. Not yet really adroit at cutting to the key issues in a bridge analysis...so I just rambled through it.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Bird

I already talked about the minor suit distribution inferences, but answering these questions anyway: 5341 is a definite possibility. With 5350, it's a tough call -- some people would rebid diamonds with the thought of perhaps getting to 5D, but I wouldn't blame anyone for bidding 3NT with, say, a 15 count opposite a partner who bid clubs clubs and clubs again.

If he is 5350, his MAX hcp is 13, since he is missing the A of clubs.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Okay, I forget about that. Now, seeing that North's 2C bid shows real clubs - at least a 5 card suit - rebid it a second time seems to promise a 6-card suit.[/i]

It IS A 6 CARD SUIT! (italics added...I'm assuming second rebid = 3rd bid.)

He should respond with 2S instead, the bid perfectly describes his hand. His first denial of support for spades shows that he has less than a 3-card suit in spades,

I wasn't aware that you were required to support back with a 3 card sp suit in either 4cm or 5cm. In the 5cm system in particular, you are looking for 4-4 matches, and partner might have as weak a hand as xxxx in sp. Granted in either system, you might show support with Hxx. Probably slightly more likely to do that in the 4cm system, where you can count on p suit being at least a decen suit...not xxxx.

so the 2S says he has a 2-card suit with an honour, plus a 5-card club suit. South then can leave the contract in 2S, which is better than 3NT.

1. HE HAS 6 c, NOT 5!
2. showing support with Ax pretty bad idea. Very decent chance that p has only 4 sp. Which means 2s could be worse than 3c. No way to know he has 5. And with 5, p likely to jump to 4 sp...in this case, I bet he does, thinking that you have 3.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Hm. I tend not to count distribution points when I open. They're worthless in NT contracts like this

Noted. But most people do, so when interpreting thier bids, you have to factor that in.

On the issue itself, I will open a 13 point hand (inlcuding dist) provided there is a convenient rebid. I would always open a 14 point hand even if it is as low as 11 hcp. You are right that in nt, the distribution won't be worth anything. Given that, p has to realize that opener who makes mimimum repsonses and shows a long suit, may hve less than 13 hcp and he has to factor that into his thinking. The other thing is that the distribution WILL help you in suit contracts. So you may miss some suit games if both of you have this attitude. The other thing is that my copy of the Bible Goren's Bridge Complete says to count the distribution when making opening bids, but just to realize that it may not apply in the eventual contract (i.e. nt or suit contract where you are short.)

/me genuflects to his 1973 edition...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


South is very unlikely to have 17 points. What would you do if you have 17 HCP and your partner opened, promising 12HCP (at least 11)? I'd be fishing for a slam right there.

I'd say his bidding was weak considering he has at least 14 points. He should be responded with 2S, showing strength over a minium response.

As discussed he can't have 17 hcp if he is 5350. If he does have 17 hcp, he still only has at least 28 hcp. Slam is 33. And in this case, you don't know what suit to play it in! But how would you fish for slam? What would you do?

You just want BOTH of them to bid 2s don't you! I'm assuming that you mean a jump shift. I guess that makes sense if he has 17hcp and 19 in total points. (i.e 5341) I wouldn't bid a jump shift with 14 hcp. My textbook # is 19+ (incl distr.) for a jump shift. With 14 hcp, I think his bidding is reasonable. He's just bidding new suits to force the bidding to continue. He knows they will get to game and he just wants to find the best one to be in.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
My defense plan: cash the heart ace and return a club. If declarer doesn't have the ace of clubs, he's in big trouble. Now he has shown 5 spades and 3 hearts, so his distribution is either 5-3-2-2 or 5-3-3-1.

Interesting distributions... Do you play with a card up your sleeve?

[Urban Ranger]

D'oh! Brain-fart.

You're right, North does have a 6-card club suit. As to South's distribution, em, you're right too. Still, he can't have 5 diamonds and no clubs, because that will leave him with a hole in the clubs with no leads into his partner's hand, which is very bad. He is unlikely to have 3 clubs either, otherwise he'd be looking at 6-3 in clubs, which is good for a minor contract. So I peg him with either one or two clubs: 5-3-3-2 or 5-3-4-1.

As for opening bids, I much prefer scaling back on the required HCP intead of adding in distro points. Say 12 or even 11 to open. I feel that paints the picture a lot more clearer. If my partner shows opening strength and I have 17 HCP, that puts us at a min. of 29 HCP. I'd smell an ironclad game contract with a possible slam. Even if partner shows up short we can still settle for a game - as long as he didn't lie to me that little weasel

You also do need a 3-card suit when supporting a 5-card major bid.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
As to South's distribution, em, you're right too.

heee heee. Hard to play with only 12!

Still, he can't have 5 diamonds and no clubs, because that will leave him with a hole in the clubs with no leads into his partner's hand, which is very bad.

Agreed. He would have had 13 hcp (max) and 3 dist points. A rebid of 3d likely in that case. Which opener passes of course.

He is unlikely to have 3 clubs either, otherwise he'd be looking at 6-3 in clubs, which is good for a minor contract.

Very good point. Plus in that case he's got a doubleton in diamonds and is likely to get a ruff there. So would probably bid 5 clubs. right on.

As for opening bids, I much prefer scaling back on the required HCP intead of adding in distro points. Say 12 or even 11 to open. I feel that paints the picture a lot more clearer.

Clearer for NT bidding. But won't you miss some suit games? In any case, Sten said they are playing either standard American or prehistoric. Both of those allow counting the distribution in. That said...I still think opener was too weak to open even with distribution.

If my partner shows opening strength and I have 17 HCP, that puts us at a min. of 29 HCP.

17 plus 11 = 28.

I'd smell an ironclad game contract with a possible slam. Even if partner shows up short we can still settle for a game - as long as he didn't lie to me that little weasel

Agreed, with 17 hcp game is iced. But as long as you bid new suit forcing, you can push into game. What slam overture, do you want to make. The jump shift is ok if you are 5341 which gives you 19 total. if you have only 18, what action would you take? (Lie?) Or do something else. Not sure...just asking.

You also do need a 3-card suit when supporting a 5-card major bid.

I mean are you REQUIRED to show a 3 card sp suit, vice rebidding your clubs at the 2c level? (If you had 3 sp..which you don't...but you said that the 2c bid denies a 3sp holding.) I thought the whole point of 5cm was to look for 4-4 major fits. Sure you COULD give him a raise with 3 spades, but if you are REQUIRED to...and p is REQUIRED to show a suit as weak as xxxx, that doesn't make sense. Even in the prehistoric system (where the 1sp bid would promise more strength or length) you would probably bid 2c rather than show a 3sp suit.

Next...if opener says 2sp over 2d, responder is likely to go to 4sp in that case. I really don't like the idea of supporting spades with Ax. Would only do it if partner had jumped from 1sp to 3sp.

Oh I like your use of smilies.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by GP
Clearer for NT bidding. But won't you miss some suit games? In any case, Sten said they are playing either standard American or prehistoric.

Unlikely. Most contracts are made either by distribution, HCP, or a combination of both. If you have the distribution but not the points, you can go for a weak 2 opening. Actually, this hand with a 6-card club suit and 10HCP is typical hand for a weak 2 opening. As long as you side understands 2D refers to a 6-card (or more) minor suit plus a weak hand (not enough HCP to open), that's fine.

Originally posted by GP
Both of those allow counting the distribution in. That said...I still think opener was too weak to open even with
distribution.

Yeah, these are just mostly guidelines that are not set in stone. If you have a 6-6-1-0 hand with 10 HCP, will you open? I definitely will.

Originally posted by GP
Agreed, with 17 hcp game is iced. But as long as you bid new suit forcing, you can push into game. What slam overture, do you want to make. The jump shift is ok if you are 5341 which gives you 19 total. if you have only 18, what action would you take? (Lie?) Or do something else. Not sure...just asking.

I reckon forcing one round is fine. You don't want your partner to pass because of bum support in your suit at any rate. Once you do that the decision wrt to the contract is more or less in your hands.

Originally posted by GP
I mean are you REQUIRED to show a 3 card sp suit, vice rebidding your clubs at the 2c level? (If you had 3 sp..which you don't...but you said that the 2c bid denies a 3sp holding.)

Yes, at least that's the way we played. Minimum is something like Jxx.

Originally posted by GP
I thought the whole point of 5cm was to look for 4-4 major fits.

4-4 major fits aren't that hot since there are 5 outside trump cards and a 4-1 split is going to be bad - a 4-1 split isn't all that rare. The whole thing about suit contracts is you need to retain control in the trump suit. If you lose control, you're in deep pile. A 5-3 fit means the opponents need to have a 5-0 split to match your long hand. A 5-0 split is very rare.

Originally posted by GP
Sure you COULD give him a raise with 3 spades, but if you are REQUIRED to...and p is REQUIRED to show a suit as weak as xxxx, that doesn't make sense.

xxxx is good support if you have a 5-card suit in your hand. Again, what you want is control, and length gives you control, not strength. Hypothetically, even if you have nothing higher than a 10, a 3-1 split means the defender will win 3 tricks in the trump suit.

Originally posted by GP
Next...if opener says 2sp over 2d, responder is likely to go to 4sp in that case. I really don't like the idea of supporting spades with Ax. Would only do it if partner had jumped from 1sp to 3sp.

You mean something like 1C-2D-2S-4S? I don't see that happening, but that's still probably going to be better than 3NT. I think the bidding would be better if it went something like 1C-1S-2C-2D-3S. The first club rebid confirms a real club suit with no spade support - otherwise a major contract is preferred. So the 3S bid means North (opener) has xxx or Ax or Kx pretty much. Seeing a misfiting hand, South can choose to take the 3S partial contract.

P.S. I am not an expert. I used to play just for fun, and to foul up little old ladies who were oh so dead serious

[TCO]

This is getting too hard (lost my answer a few times) so I'm going to break it into chunks.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Unlikely. Most contracts are made either by distribution, HCP, or a combination of both. If you have the distribution but not the points, you can go for a weak 2 opening. Actually, this hand with a 6-card club suit and 10HCP is typical hand for a weak 2 opening. As long as you side understands 2D refers to a 6-card (or more) minor suit plus a weak hand (not enough HCP to open), that's fine.

OK...if you bring in the evil weak 2, I guess your overall system makes sense. I will stick to learning more standard stuff first.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Yes, at least that's the way we played. Minimum is something like Jxx.

In standard American or in prehistoric you are not required to show support with Hxx. It is your judgement. You can rebid your own suit (esp if 6 long.) Thus you have not denied a 3 card sp suit. With 4 deep, there would be a bit more of an impetus to show it of course.

The issue wrt 5cm is that responder is pushed to bid a major even with xxxx in response to the 1 minor opening. Therefore it makes even less sense in that case, to put a requirement on opener to show major support with Hxx.