Bridge players game arranging thread

[TCO]

Like the title says...this is for anyone wanting to set up a game. I have played with Rex Little and with Jon Miller a few times already.

[Urban Ranger]

Sounds interesting, but maybe we should post the system and conventions we use beforehand.

[Boris Godunov]

Isn't Bridge for little old ladies over tea?



I would, but I totally suck at bridge and would be an easy target/piss poor partner. But have fun.

[TCO]

UR,

Good idea.
Basic system: My preference is to play Goren. I prefer the 4 card majors, but so many people play 5cm, that I can live with that no problem.

Conventions: Stay, Gerber, Blackwood. (Can omit any or all...of course).

Level of play: I'm not an expert. I'm a little better than the average player on pogo. But I don't know squeeze plays, etc.

[Bird]

Defensive quiz.

You are East and you and your partner will pass throughout. North opens and the auction goes as follows:

1C-1S
2C-2D
3C-3N

Playing standard (4th best) leads, your partner leads the 3 of Hearts. Dummy hits with the following:

S: Ax
H: J9x
D: J9
C: KJ7xxx

Your hand is:

S: KQx
H: A84
D: Q8x
C: Q8xx


This will be a developing quiz. First things first. What do you know about declarer's hand, assuming the opponents are playing something close to Standard American?

[TCO]

GP...still kicking himself for not knowing bird was near NJO...

Ola!

hmmm...developing answer. I'm not disciplined enough to think this way when playing but I'll give it a shot.

1. You know that opp has 13+ hcp because of how he bid up inot game over North's minimum responses.

2. Since you have 13 hcp and dummy has 10, declarer max points is 40-23 = 17 hcp. If your partner has at least one honor in hearts (K or Q, implied by the 4th best lead) than declarer has 14 or 15 hcp.

3. From the cards on table, there are 8 sp, 7 h, 8 d and 3 c to divide among partner and declarer.

4. From the bidding, opp has at least 4 sp and 4 d (he bid those suits.) He has less than 4 h. And a max of 3c. My best guess: something like 4-3-4-2 (sp-h-d-c). There's probably further I could go here...but I'm not sure.

5. from the point count, opp has almost all the non-showing honors. Partner can't have more than 4 points. And probably just has the Q or K of hearts.

So maybe somthing like this:

sp Jxxx
h K (or Q)xx
d AKxx
c Ax

[TCO]

umm...one thing I'm not sure of: opp did NOT bid nt until last resort. This would seem to argue against the balanced hand which I showed.

[Bird]

That's pretty damn good for someone who just learned the game. I know people who've played for years and still don't think that way.

1. Right. Aggressive opponents might show up with 12 HCP, but in that case, unless declarer has all three missing clubs or has distorted the bidding in a big way, there is no way in hell he can make the contract.

2. This is mostly right also. The "mostly" is partly a matter of partnership style. Partner might have led from 10xxx, in which case he probably has a diamond honor, or perhaps the Ace of clubs. (There's no law against leading low from Kxx or Qxx, but on this auction I think that's unlikely.) All in all, it's not unreasonable to think that partner has an honor somewhere because declarer didn't make a slam try.

3. Right, moving on to .......

4. Assuming Standard American (5 card majors) and even Prehistoric (Goren) methods, you can refine this even further, and your second post is on target in that regard. Partner is indeed marked with 4 hearts, leaving declarer with 3. So why did declarer bid diamonds?

5. We've already agreed with this (see no. 2).

More to follow after you answer the question in number 4.

[TCO]

This is going to be a Socratic dialog. (I.e. you are going to have to pull teeth to get me to think it all through!)

I still use "Standard American" to describe (my) prehistoric style since that is what G calls it in the 1973 edition that I have of his. But I agree that everybody uses it to mean 5cm.

I'm a little unclear regarding the 4th best comment. Am I supposed to take that as an extra given? In a real game, he might lead even just from xxx, no? I mean he's got a pretty crappy hand. And that is the unbid suit. So why not lead to me in the hopes that, that suit is the one we need to develop? Scratch that thought. If he was xxx, he would have led from the top. So...he's either 10xxx, Kxxx, or Qxxx. (My natural instinct was to place him with one of the honors...cause I think we need to have that to defeat the contract...but I haven't really thought that part through.) In any case, if I assume opp are playing 4 card majors, that means opp doesn't have a 4 c heart suti cause he nver showed it.

Point taken on "why would he bid diamonds". With the balanced hand I showed, he would go right to nt rather than show that 4c d suit. So the hand must be more unbalanced. I guess we need to move some club(s) and/or h into the diamond suit. You could move a heart over to clubs, leaving him with Qx? Would that unbalance the hand enough to let him bid diamonds rather than nt? Since it is new suti forcing. just don't know here.

He never rebid the sp so they are definintely 4 deep.

I gues another arrangement might be

4sp
2h
5d
2c

Or should it be even more unbalenced?

4sp
2h
6d
1c?

not sure if he wouldn't rebid the diamonds than..

[TCO]

Given that partner led the 3 of h, that puts him with max 5 h. So opp must have at least 2h.

That's the only other thing I could figure out.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Bird
That's pretty damn good for someone who just learned the game. I know people who've played for years and still don't think that way.

Like I said, I don't really think this way during play. Probably should...and hope to some day. But not how I think yet...especially under time pressure.

[Bird]

First of all, I was sloppy with the hand layout. I meant to make dummy J92 of hearts so it was clear the heart 3 was not from a 5 card suit. That would clarify that the heart lead was not from a 5 card suit (unless partner is trying to be deceptive, which makes little sense given his bust), thus my earlier comments about leading from Qxx or Kxx. Mea culpa.

Your thoughts are right given the lack of clarity. And I agree that with partner's obviously crappy hand he might very well lead xxx in an unbid suit to try to reach my strength, but in that case he would probably lead the top or middle card, certainly not the lowest card. So you're on target there too.

For purposes of this exercise, assume the opponents are playing 5 card majors. Most people in the states do (although I don't with my regular partners) and it's important to understand the inferences from their auctions. In this case, however, I doubt the auction would have been different regardless of system.

With that understanding, what inferences can you draw from declarer's diamond bid? You are absolutely correct that declarer has some sort of "shape", and now you know he has 3 hearts.

[TCO]

Ok...I'll try again.

4sp based on not rebidding sp*
3h as discussed

that leaves 6 diamonds and clubs. I guess he could have been bidding the diamond suit cause it was an actual interesting suit. Or he could have been trying to keep the bidding going based on his point count even with a short diamond suit. I guess my best guess is: 5 diamonds and 1 club.

If don't know if you can squeeze much more out of this "dummy", Bird. You're welcome to keep giving hints though. I like the post count! (Hope Ming doesn't see here...)


*Of course since you didn't give me a "roger" on that, like you did for the other points, that may be a false reasoning. hmmmm...

[Urban Ranger]

Looks like the declarer will have problems cashing the long club suits in the dummy, so the defense should be to stop that from happening.


GP,

Declarer shouldn't have 6D, and unlikely to have 5D. Clearly they have a suit mismatch here, and declarer didn't rebid diamonds. If declarer had a 5-card suit in diamonds, he should rebid it (unless it's something like xxxxx), then North would have stopped at 3D, which is a much better contract if South had 5 or even 6 diamonds.


Bird,

Why did North bid clubs 3 times with 10 points? I don't see why he opened on 1 either. A much better bid would be to pass. He didn't have what it takes to bid 3C, and 2C is artifical strong bid most of the time.

[Bird]

Ok, I think the right concepts have filtered through the analyses. UR is right that declarer should not have longer diamonds than spades, and on this auction he probably does not have 5 diamonds. GP -- whether playing 4 or 5 card majors, neither opener nor responder should feel obliged to automatically rebid a 5 card suit. Here, for example, if declarer has 5-3-4-1 shape, he certainly shouldn't rebid spades if for no other reason than it's a crappy five card suit.

There are two schools of thought on responding. One approach is to describe your shape by bidding up the line regardless of strength. In other words, if partner opens 1C, bid 1D any time you have 4 diamonds and no major with greater length. The other approach is to bypass the diamond suit and bid the major first whenever you don't have game forcing values. There are implications of the latter approach that can be discussed another day. In this case, b/c declarer obviously had game forcing values, I don't believe it is likely he would bypass a 5 card diamond suit to bid a 4 card (crappy) spade suit. (As an aside, IMO the most important reason to accurately bid your shape when you have game forcing values is that it makes slam bidding much easier.)

In "modern" standard bidding, a new minor suit (like the 2D bid here) is 100% forcing and does not necessarily promise diamonds. Responder would, for example, probably bid 2D with 5-3-3-2, 5-4-2-2, or 5-3-4-1 (plus others not relevant here). This allows the partnership to find their 5-3 spade fit or even a 4-4 heart fit in cases where responder might want to bid a non-forcing 2H with 5-4 shape in the majors. Playing 4 card majors, the 2D bid is also forcing, but denies 4 hearts. Taking into account the comments above, plus GP's on-target observations about the delayed NT bid, it is extremely likely declarer has 5 spades. (He won't have 6 b/c he would have bid differently.) Best guess, then, is that he's 5-3 in the majors.

Now think about the likely minor suit distribution. Could declarer have 2 diamonds and 3 clubs? Possibly, but then partner has 6 diamonds and might have led one, plus declarer might have opted to raise clubs rather than bid NT (no guarantees here, of course). I'd be inclined to expect declarer to have at least 3 diamonds, and maybe 4. If he has 3 diamonds, partner has 5 and the lead then suggests that partner must have a heart honor b/c with a worthless 5 card diamond suit and a worthless 4 card heart suit, partner has no reason not to lead a diamond on this auction. In this auction, partner certainly should not lead from a worthless 4 card heart suit if he has 5 diamonds to an honor.

UR: it is indeed a very borderline opening hand, but it's a brave new world out there and people are very aggressive nowadays. Most people would not open the hand, but for those that do, I think the bidding is right. Opener just keeps sending "slow down" messages by rebidding clubs. Obviously, if you're going to open these kinds of hands, your partner needs to take that possibility into account when bidding.

Ok, enough about the bidding. How do we beat this hand? Partner leads the 3 of Hearts and declarer plays the 9 from dummy. Things certainly look promising for your side. You're up.

Edit: let's simplify this a little. Assume partner isn't torturing you by leading from 10xxx and that he therefore has a heart honor.