E3 thread

[Asher]

dp

[Imran Siddiqui]

So it's supposed to be impressive that Zelda just barely beat a game in its 2nd year of availability...?

It also had 3 less months of selling, being released in March.

And Canada's the country that had, by far, the highest N64 adoption rate in terms of market share.

That's nice, but Windwaker was on the Gamecube, not the N64.

Just what are you basing this on?

The tons of gamers I know.

you'll VERY rarely see somebody on a college campus raving about how he beat Super Mario Sunshine or Zelda

Because they don't do so on your college campus, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Mario Kart was big stuff among people I knew... and Zelda, of course, is always big news.

Hell, I've never even heard of any person bragging about a Halo tournament... and Madden is on the Gamecube as well .

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

So it's supposed to be impressive that Zelda just barely beat a game in its 2nd year of availability...?

It also had 3 less months of selling, being released in March.

So you think 3 months more of selling, particularly on a game like Zelda where it dropped like a rock out of the top 5 after its first month of availability, would close the 3M to 11.5M gap?

That's nice, but Windwaker was on the Gamecube, not the N64.

Nintendo has one of the highest levels of brand loyalty, so it's rather important.

Hell, I've never even heard of any person bragging about a Halo tournament... and Madden is on the Gamecube as well .

It sells like sh*t on Gamecube, and lacks online play.

[Asher]

Here's why the Gamecube has the kiddie image.

Top 15 sellers for March (NPD figures):
1 POKEMON COLOSSEUM $16,562,150 342,603
2 METAL GEAR:TWIN SNAKE $4,858,605 122,435
3 MARIO KART: DOUBLE $3,285,578 68,427
4 HARVEST MOON:WONDRFUL $2,716,202 68,126
5 FINAL FANTASY CRYSTAL $3,004,271 61,443
6 SONIC HEROES $2,796,075 58,582
7 SUPER SMASH BRO MELEE $1,519,935 51,950
8 BOND 007: EVERYTHING $2,246,287 45,905
9 LUIGI'S MANSION $815,738 43,179
10 MVP BASEBALL 2004 $1,554,516 31,986
11 SUPER MARIO SUNSHINE $852,497 29,446
12 MARIO PARTY 5 $1,405,631 28,391
13 PAC-MAN PLAYER'S BND $474,649 24,327
14 SCOOBY-DOO: MYSTERY $810,327 21,383
15 SUPER MONKEY BALL $412,531 21,311

Compared to, say, Xbox...
1 NINJA GAIDEN $17,972,270 362,441
2 T. CLANCYS PANDORA $10,597,500 213,310
3 MVP BASEBALL 2004 $6,158,712 125,106
4 HALO $2,490,905 83,338
5 THE SUFFERING $3,151,897 63,427
6 BOND 007: EVERYTHING $3,030,226 61,714
7 MX UNLEASHED $1,857,923 46,977
8 MAFIA $2,273,118 46,681
9 GRAND THEFT AUTO PACK $1,844,351 40,025
10 NEED SPEED: UNDERGRND $1,361,073 27,924
11 TENCHU:RETURN DARKNSS $1,360,552 27,532
12 T. CLANCYS RAINBOW 3 $1,328,952 27,047
13 TOP SPIN $756,962 25,602
14 DEAD MAN'S HAND $761,096 25,562
15 NFL STREET $1,143,423 24,140

(out of interest, hardware revenue & sales)
PS2 $53,860,294 294,437
XBX $32,337,661 198,445
GC $16,094,477 163,028

Notice the sports sales:
MVP Baseball sold 125,106 in one month on Xbox, and 31,986 on GC. That's why Sega canned all GCN sports games altogether. They reckon most people buy different games on Gamecube, apparently games like Pokemon...

[Imran Siddiqui]

So you think 3 months more of selling, particularly on a game like Zelda where it dropped like a rock out of the top 5 after its first month of availability, would close the 3M to 11.5M gap?

It's actually about a year between releases. Also you ignore the differences in market share between Gamecube and Playstation2.

lacks online play.

It lacks online play on X-Box as well (EA hasn't supported it), but sells ok on that.

I don't know why you don't think that plenty of people would not buy a Zelda game if it came out for, say, the X-Box. I know I'd be first in line... and I'm not going to get a Gamecube just for the one game.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It lacks online play on X-Box as well (EA hasn't supported it), but sells ok on that.

Madden 2005 will have Live, as will ~15 EA titles due out this year.

It sells okay on the Xbox, because the Xbox/PS2 are the "cool" consoles. The casual gamers who play sports games, who play games like GTA, who play the best selling games -- period -- play Xbox or PS2.

The kids who play Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon buy a Gamecube, which is why those games would sell like **** on the Xbox/PS2.

I don't know why you don't think that plenty of people would not buy a Zelda game if it came out for, say, the X-Box. I know I'd be first in line... and I'm not going to get a Gamecube just for the one game.

Because the vast majority of people who would play Zelda, would buy a Gamecube for $99. You're in the minority here.

I bought a Gamecube for a few games, as did everyone else I know who doesn't make fun of Zelda and actually wanted to play it.

The fact of the matter is, games like Zelda, Sonic, Mario, etc. sell disproportionately well on the Gamecube, because of the audience -- the people who like those types of games, buy a Gamecube. They don't sell as well on the Xbox or PS2. Compare Ico to Mario Sunshine -- Ico is an infinitely superior platformer, but sold like ****. Mario Sunshine was a **** platformer that sold very well. Ico was a PS2 title, Mario was a Gamecube title.

Gamecube and PS2/Xbox have fundamentally different playerbases. Zelda will still sell better on Gamecube than it would on the Xbox/PS2 combined, guaranteed.

Hell, Soul Calibur sold most on Gamecube than any other platforms, JUST because Link was the Gamecube special character...Nintendo players are whack.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Madden 2005 will have Live

WILL being the operative word. This is the first year EA has signed on with X-Box Live. So when saying it lacked online play on the GC, it did on XBox as well.

Because the vast majority of people who would play Zelda, would buy a Gamecube for $99. You're in the minority here.

Not everyone is made of money. I don't know many people with more than one console and wouldn't buy another console even if there was a great game they'd love to play. $150 (console + game) is more than most people are willing to pay for a single game.

Zelda will still sell better on Gamecube than it would on the Xbox/PS2 combined, guaranteed.

I doubt it. I bet it'd sell just as well on XBox/PS2. There isn't another game like it and Zelda was/is insanely popular. EVERYONE knows the Legend of Zelda. Most people have played it on the NES and SNES. It's one of the most recognizable games on the planet and you are telling me it won't sell on other platforms? Come on!

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
WILL being the operative word. This is the first year EA has signed on with X-Box Live. So when saying it lacked online play on the GC, it did on XBox as well.

You misunderstand -- I'm not pegging the lack of online support as the reason for the GCN's poor sales. The gamecube's sales are poor for sports titles, because the Gamecube players would prefer trading Pokemon cards than figuring out the oh-so-complex rules of football.

The fact that it's the only console without online play for upcoming games is yet another mark against it.

Not everyone is made of money. I don't know many people with more than one console and wouldn't buy another console even if there was a great game they'd love to play. $150 (console + game) is more than most people are willing to pay for a single game.

I still insist the people who would pay for Zelda are more than likely Gamecube owners already.

I have NO idea why you think Zelda has mainstream appeal. It doesn't. Zelda has retro appeals to nostalgic gamers. As far as an adventure/RPG goes, Zelda is weak and bland. The only reason it and Mario sell like they do is for the Nintendo Nostaliga Factor, which would mean most of the people buying Nintendo games have...a gamecube.

I realize you're not made of money, but if that was the case why did you buy the expensive console and not the cheap console if you want to play Zelda?

I doubt it. I bet it'd sell just as well on XBox/PS2. There isn't another game like it and Zelda was/is insanely popular.

There are dozens of games like Zelda. Shallow adventure game with typical puzzles with a muddled continuous storyline?

Zelda is a classic series. It sells based on nostalgia, period. It and Mario are both GROSSLY overrated games.

I also strongly disagree it's "insanely popular" -- Xbox and Gamecube have nearly identical marketshare, and Halo sold over twice as much (excluding PC sales).

EVERYONE knows the Legend of Zelda. Most people have played it on the NES and SNES. It's one of the most recognizable games on the planet and you are telling me it won't sell on other platforms? Come on!

It won't sell nearly as well. And it's OBVIOUS.

The vast majority of the people willing to buy Zelda and play Zelda, own a Gamecube.

You don't seem to comprehend how comparatively few people owned a NES or SNES, compared to the total market size now (something like 20M compared to 150M consoles). Saying that it was popular and legendary back when it was a tiny market doesn't mean it'll be popular when the best selling games are sport simulations, car-jacking games, sci-fi first person shooters, etc.

Zelda, quite simply, is a rather average game. Further, it's cell-shading will put off way more people than most other Zelda games, particularly in the overwhelmingly popular "cool" demographic who call the Gamecube "gay"...

[Imran Siddiqui]

I have NO idea why you think Zelda has mainstream appeal. It doesn't. Zelda has retro appeals to nostalgic gamers. As far as an adventure/RPG goes, Zelda is weak and bland. The only reason it and Mario sell like they do is for the Nintendo Nostaliga Factor, which would mean most of the people buying Nintendo games have...a gamecube.

Actually they sell because they are considered utterly amazing games. Have you read the reviews of the Zelda games? They are consistenly rated very high. Zelda still has mainstream appeal because they are very good games which are consistently rated high. Was it Gamespot who called the Windwaker the best game of 2003?

A very well known series, which is constantly rated high won't sell on other consoles? Why the Hell not?

I realize you're not made of money, but if that was the case why did you buy the expensive console and not the cheap console if you want to play Zelda?

Because it wasn't available! If any store around me had the Gamecube, I'd be a GC owner right now instead of an XBox one.

Zelda is a classic series. It sells based on nostalgia, period. It and Mario are both GROSSLY overrated games.

Why because you don't think they are any good? Plenty disagree with you:

http://www.gametab.com/gcn/legend.of.zelda.the.wind.waker/1010/

http://www.gametab.com/gcn/super.mario.sunshine/1011/

That isn't even talking about Metroid: Prime, which some consider the best GC game of them all:

http://www.gametab.com/gcn/metroid.prime/1001/

People like a variety of games. They like the huge number of titles on Playstation2 or the power of GC, but they'd also buy Zelda or Metroid if it was offered to them. They just didn't want to get a Gamecube. They wanted something which they could play DVD's on or something that had a gamepad better for sports games playing. Doesn't mean if Zelda was released for XBox, which the super good reviews and the well known name, they'd shy away!!

Zelda, quite simply, is a rather average game.

Yes, average game indeed. Considering the amazing reviews for it.

--

I wonder why I should listen to you about what will happen in the console market... after all you were the one who INSISTED that GTA: Double Pack would come out with multiplayer on XBox Live, even in the face of me telling you over and over that it wouldn't .

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually they sell because they are considered utterly amazing games. Have you read the reviews of the Zelda games? They are consistenly rated very high. Zelda still has mainstream appeal because they are very good games which are consistently rated high. Was it Gamespot who called the Windwaker the best game of 2003?

A very well known series, which is constantly rated high won't sell on other consoles? Why the Hell not?

Already told you. They get rated insanely high by gamers who've been playing the series since its inception, and a lot of it is the psychology of the nostalgia factor.

Tons of the "best games ever" sell like crap. Beyond Good and Evil, for instance.

Because it wasn't available! If any store around me had the Gamecube, I'd be a GC owner right now instead of an XBox one.

Well obviously I'm dealing with somebody who knows what he's talking about, if he buys consoles based on availability.

Why because you don't think they are any good? Plenty disagree with you:

Brilliant -- when somebody says a game is overrated, counter it by showing lots of high ratings. The majority of people I know who bought Mario and Zelda, and even Metroid, have not finished them -- myself included. They're just not very good GAMES. The gameplay is lacking, it's too basic. It's a throwback to the NES/SNES days for sure, but I've matured since then and demand something a bit higher-brow than spraying water to "clean" the city...or in Metroid Prime, I found it laughable how there isn't even an option to do manual aiming ala Halo. Also way too much backtracking. The games are just too easy, they dumb it down because Nintendo's fundamental belief is simpler games are better...I disagree. I dislike overly complicated games (MOO3), but I like something with some real dynamics to it.

Yes, average game indeed. Considering the amazing reviews for it.

As I said, it's insanely how overrated it was.

I wonder why I should listen to you about what will happen in the console market... after all you were the one who INSISTED that GTA: Double Pack would come out with multiplayer on XBox Live, even in the face of me telling you over and over that it wouldn't .

Well, what can I say, Sony's money speaks. The code is there, it's all politics.

I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. I own both the Gamecube and the Xbox, and the games we're talking about -- you likely haven't even played the games. I actually make educated buying decisions about my consoles, and you buy based on what's in stock at your local stores. I'm a young guy in the prime market who knows lots of gamers in high school, college, and in the young-professional world -- where the vast majority of the market is, so I think I have a pretty good grasp on the market.

All of Nintendo's trademark games will always sell best on a Nintendo platform, period. The reason? The majority of Nintendo fans buy a Nintendo platform.

It's such basic reasoning that I'm bothered that you can't figure it out on your own...

[Asher]

This review of Metroid Prime is dead on, for example:

One of the disadvantages of living in these accelerated times is that the slow consistency of things repeatedly done well is no longer quite as satisfactory as it used to be. Gamers no longer want the same old thing; we require innovation, newness, and novelty in our entertainment. Developers have been forced to adapt to the new paradigm, which, stated succinctly, is: change, or die.

None of that, of course, is true. Perhaps in some distant Nirvana innovative games consistently appear, but no, console gamers in this world are generally left to choose between representatives of differents brands of fighting games and sports games and platform games, with little to differentiate between them besides aesthetics and perhaps a few different features. Capcom has managed to be fairly successful doing nothing but give their old game formulas 3D facelifts. The situation is arguably the most critical on the Gamecube. Oh, sure, we've seen Pikmin and Animal Crossing, but outside of that, we're left with multi-console ports (which are generally to be avoided, considering the Gamecube controller's button disadvantage), older games given facelifts (Resident Evil, Phantasy Star Online, Sonic Adventure 2: Battle), and new entries into well-established (and therefore mostly innovation-proof) series. Speaking of which....

Metroid Prime is the single greatest key-hunting game ever made for a console. On the other hand...it does very little to attempt to transcend the key-hunting genre. But let's start with the good stuff, shall we?

Very few people who are going to be interested in getting this game really need the Metroid backstory (what little there is), but to recap: you are Samus Aran, intergalactic warrior interested only in ridding the universe of the nefarious Space Pirates and their eponymous pets, the Metroids. You've destroyed Space Pirate installations on two different worlds (in Metroid for the NES and Super Metroid for the SNES), and now you've tracked their operation to the mysterious planet of Tallon IV.

The most obvious change in Metroid Prime is the first-person viewpoint of Samus. The previous games were, of course, 2D scrollers, but we live in the 21st century now, and it's difficult to imagine anyone getting too excited about paying 50 bucks to run sideways. The action-oriented gameplay makes this the perfect series for Nintendo to attempt a first-person game with (though I retain hopes that they'll license the Doom III engine for the next Mario game), but the controls are a bit befuddling at first, and never quite gain the ease of use that a better controller would make possible. The primary concern is the lack of a separate stick for moving the viewpoint; the same analog stick is used both for movement and targeting. (The secondary stick is used for shifting between beam weapons.) This has some plain drawbacks when compared to the traditional dual-analog FPS controls, such as the separate trigger required for strafing, and the difficulty in quickly aiming up and down. The action buttons are little better, though this is mostly the fault of the Gamecube controller's awkward layout. Even after 15 hours into the game, I would still occasionally find myself shooting rockets instead of activating the map, or changing out of ball mode when I'm attempting to lay a powerbomb.

The designers appear to have recognized the shortcomings of their control scheme, however, and for the most part, the game is good about not making the single-stick movement too much of a liability. The pace is rather sedate when compared with most first-person games, since it really isn't an FPS, but rather an adventure game with a first-person viewpoint. Whether you call it an action game, an adventure game, or an action-adventure FPS, however, you can't get around the fact that the bulk of Samus' time is going to be spent fighting enemies. Most combat situations consist of a couple of enemies at a time, or groups of enemies clustered together for easier lock-ons. The lock-on system is the saving grace of the controller design, and indeed the game would be impossible to play without it; once you have an enemy in your sights, you depress the left trigger to automatically lock-on to them. This has the side effect of enabling you to strafe automatically, as well as dodge incoming blows with the jump button, since you are not able to move your view laterally while you're locked on to an enemy. The lock-on is forgiving enough to make dispatching enemies rather simple, once you get the hang of it: simply fire until an enemy is dead, then click the lock-on button again to shift your reticule to the next target. The system is rather like Grand Theft Auto 3: Vice City's in this regard, with the exception that free-look requires you to hold down the right trigger. All in all, the designers did a good job ensuring that the unorthodox control scheme is manageable in the game. That doesn't mean it's a particularly good design, mind you, or that veteran FPS players will find it easy to use; it just means that the game and its controls dovetail fairly well. There's also a brief tutorialish first level on an orbiting ship, with pop-up hints that eases you into the game without overwhelming you with numerous controls at the same time.

Once Samus finds herself planetside on Tallon IV, the fun begins. Or the tediousness, depending on your point of view. Via an implausible accident on the spaceship, Samus' weapons and auxiliary systems are destroyed, and so the bulk of the game consists of finding replacements for these tools and new technology to aid in the fight against the Space Pirates, while traveling through a half-dozen or so distinct environments. The environments are not particularly inspired; there's a fire level, and an ice level, and a rainy outdoors level, and so on. They look nice, though.

The environments are filled with doors, passages, crumbly walls, and the like, many of which Samus can open with the beam weapon she begins the game with, but there are many more that need to be unlocked in some way. There are five different types of doors alone, with one opened by any beam weapon, one sensitive only to the three beam upgrades, and one that has to blasted open by missiles. In addition, there are numerous other obstacles that can only be destroyed by certain weapons, like missiles, or bombs, or charging up one of your beam weapons. Samus will come across all of these obstacles in her travels, and if she doesn't possess the correct tool, she has to find it and come back later. This kind of controlled access lends the supposedly explorable Tallon IV a depressing kind of linearity to it; even though you'll eventually be able to take multiple paths between the same two points, whenever you start a new game, you'll be acquiring the same items in the same order in the same places guarded by the same bosses. (You can guess what this does for the game's replayability.)

And that's really the whole story behind Metroid Prime. Oh, sure, there are enemies, quite a few of them actually, but they seem a bit disappointing after the first play-through. Since the lock-on function works so well, in most instances, your foes are dispatched after you lock on and fire your weapon a few times. Tactics comes into play only so far as finding out if the enemy has a particular weapon that kills them more quickly, or discovering a pattern to their attack and dodging them. There is exploration to be done, with an excellent mapping system that lets you know where you've gone and where you haven't, if that's your kind of thrill.

The numerous bosses fare a little better, since they are universally well-designed and often challenging, even on the normal difficulty level. Some of the more interesting bosses utilize their environment to heal themselves, or turn invisible, or force you to switch weapons in order to keep up with their shifting defenses. Still, the controls hinder the game from really throwing curves at the player; since the scan visor usually tells you straight out whatever weaknesses the enemy has, and the lock-on feature will automatically target any weak spots, you're again often reduced to dodging incoming fire while waiting for a vital area to become open to attack. Once you know their attack patterns, victory usually becomes a surety. I even managed to kill the last two bosses in the game on my first tries, something I wasn't really expecting given the scuttlebutt I had heard going around concerning their difficulty. (To be fair, the game does offer a Hard mode, where enemies have double their normal life and deal twice as much damage.)

Graphics: 3.7

The game really can't compare with the best and brightest titles on the Xbox or the PC (compare this game's thermal vision with that of Splinter Cell), but for a system that costs 150 bucks, the Gamecube does a decent job of making a pretty game run smoothly at 60 frames per second. There are some neat details, such as the reflection of Samus' eyes on the inside of your visor when you pass through smoke, but for the most part, Metroid Prime is consistently attractive, if rarely overwhelmingly beautiful. The color schemes of the various levels don't help much: the ice level is predominantly white, the lava stage is all red, and so on. A bit of variety would've broken up the monotony on these levels.

The enemies are where the game really shines, though. Fluid animations abound, and the Space Pirate enemies are particularly neat-looking. The bosses, as expected, are where most of the graphical labor was invested, and it shows.

I should note, however, that the color-coded enemies made me feel, well, a little patronized, as if I were the autistic kid that everyone talks to verrryyyy sloowwwly. Yeah, it helps to know what weapon to use at any given moment, since enemies are colored to match the weapon they're vulnerable to, but this could've been indicated in a less facile manner. This is only an issue with a minority of opponents, mind you.

Sound: 3.0

The sounds of the game are, well, sounds. I'm not an audiophile, so I'm hardly picky when it comes to whether a video game ice beam sounds like the ice beam that I got for Christmas. I barely recall the music, so I guess it's safe to say it didn't make much of an impression on me one way or another.

Gameplay: 3.5

Is Metroid Prime fun? Well, it depends. The controls, as stated, fit well with the game's action, and blasting things with high-powered weaponry never really ceases to be entertaining. The game supplies rewards often enough to constantly give you new tech to mess around with, but this unfortunately seems to be intended to mask the game design's hallmarks: backtracking and key-finding, both of which you'll be doing a lot of. Assuming you start in area A, you'll be asked to travel to area B to find a widget, which unlocks a door in area A, which leads to another widget, which unlocks a door in area B, and so on. Add a few more areas and that's basically the game. There's no real story apart from a flimsy set of records that Samus scans off of Space Pirate computers and artifacts left by Tallon IV's native peoples. The scanning aspect of the game, which requires Samus to switch to a dedicated scanning view in order to download data, could've been used to much greater effect, had the developers wanted to include an actual backstory to the game. One only has to think of System Shocks 1 & 2 to see how gripping a story can be when told primarily through found recordings. But there's virtually nothing to spur you on in the game except the desire to acquire more tchotchkes for your suit and fight bigger and badder enemies. In fact, if you decide to jump into the game without reading the manual, it's pretty likely you'll never figure out why Samus is risking her life to fight off the Space Pirates. Of course, this is an action game, so a flimsy plot is to be expected, but the small parcels of story we get could've been expanded upon without much effort.

Replayability: 1.5

I made a half-hearted attempt at playing through the game a second time, but I didn't even make it to the first set of missiles before I stopped playing. Since the game isn't randomized at all, you'll encounter the same enemies in the same locations every time you play through, and considering you probably backtracked through each area of the game a half-dozen times on the first go-round, there's little motivation to do it all over again, unless you really, really loved the play mechanics. As heretical as it may sound, there are better first-person games out there (if on other systems); you'd be better off finding one of them and giving it a shot. It's also worth mentioning that it's pretty difficult to make the game last longer than 20 hours, and with enough practice you could probably cut that in half.

There is a Hard mode, to be fair, and multiple (underwhelming) endings, but that's a small hill of beans compared to a game that's really only fun to play through once.

Documentation / Support: 4.0

Included in the package are no fewer than four separate documents: a 30-page game manual that covers the basics of the game well, even if it reveals much of the tech that you won't find until later in the game; instructions on how to hook up your GBA w/ Metroid Fusion to your Gamecube, which allows you to play the original Metroid; an exhortation to buy a subscription to Nintendo Power; and a set of safety precautions for the Gamecube, none of which are Metroid Prime specific. Nintendo obviously suspected this would be the first title people will buy for their new Gamecubes this past holiday season.

Summary: 3.3 / 5

If you head into Metroid Prime expecting to find the next Halo, then you're bound to be disappointed. If you expect a decent adventure game, then you'll be rewarded. But is that enough? I mean, this is Metroid we're talking about, right? One of Nintendo's Big Three franchises, along with Zelda and Mario? As it is, Metroid Prime is good enough, but not a pantheon-level Great Game. There's little sense of the canonical palimpsest being rewritten, or of bold new directions being undertaken. This is just another addition to a series that was exciting enough back when the SNES was king. It's always surprising to me to see people apotheosize games and developers for merely doing what is expected of them - Halo was the last beneficiary of this treatment, and now we have Metroid Prime being given the same shower of praise. I know it's unfair to judge a game based on expectations, but like it or not, there is a Metrodi legacy that must be lived up to, especially for those of us who played the original games on the original systems.

As it is, Metroid Prime is like a huge lake that you marvel at as you walk up to it, only to dive in and find that the water only comes up to your knees; it's pretty to look at, but there's not much depth.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Tons of the "best games ever" sell like crap.

Mostly because of the lack of name recognition and marketing, which won't happen with Nintendo games.

when somebody says a game is overrated, counter it by showing lots of high ratings.

Better than relying on anecdotal evidence, which you are doing. Yes, you don't like it. Big ****ing deal. Proves nothing. Reviewers rating it highly? Proves a lot.

All of Nintendo's trademark games will always sell best on a Nintendo platform, period. The reason? The majority of Nintendo fans buy a Nintendo platform.

So even those people who like a good game based on Zelda or Metroid or even Mario, but also want more variety in their games would buy a Gamecube, which doesn't have the variety they want from their console? You know even fans of Zelda may want a console where they can play a great number of games and not simply a few. There are plenty of people who'd LOVE to play Zelda, Metroid, etc., but don't want to buy a console for 3 games.

[SnowFire]

Asher: Chalk me up into that "minority" then. I would instantly buy Zelda games if they were available for PS2 or other consoles. As Imran said, why the heck would a very highly rated and respected game series NOT sell on other consoles? What's the average age of PS2 & XBox gamers again? These are the same kids who grew up playing Zelda back on the NES & SNES. And even those who haven't have surely heard of it. Zelda has an insanely good reputation- even some people out of the gaming loop have heard of it.

You like to talk about Nintendo's image problem, that their good games don't sell as well because people who'd buy 'em don't own the console. So if that's true, shouldn't there be legions of waiting Zelda & Eternal Darkness fans ready to snap up Nintendo or Silicon Knights work should it move to another console?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Better than relying on anecdotal evidence, which you are doing. Yes, you don't like it. Big ****ing deal. Proves nothing. Reviewers rating it highly? Proves a lot.

So that's why you love Civ3 so much!

[Asher]

Originally posted by SnowFire
Asher: Chalk me up into that "minority" then.

Okay, I'm starting a poll on this.

I would instantly buy Zelda games if they were available for PS2 or other consoles. As Imran said, why the heck would a very highly rated and respected game series NOT sell on other consoles?

Because they're not actually very good games -- they're selling on the name alone, and Gamecube owners don't have much to choose from. They buy what comes their way, they buy games like this based on high expectations and glowing reviews from ***** who would be fired to ever give a brand-name Nintendo franchise a bad review.

When they actually play it, they realize "hey, half of the games I bought on Xbox are better than this" and stop playing it in favor of, say, Splinter Cell or Knights of the Old Republic, which are truly much better games than Zelda, Mario, or Metroid Prime...

You like to talk about Nintendo's image problem, that their good games don't sell as well because people who'd buy 'em don't own the console.

When did I say this? I've said -- repeatedly -- that the majority of people who would buy them, would buy the console.

So if that's true, shouldn't there be legions of waiting Zelda & Eternal Darkness fans ready to snap up Nintendo or Silicon Knights work should it move to another console?

Not sure if you know this or not, Silicon Knights has cut ties to Nintendo because Nintendo had kept telling them to dumb their games down.

All of the staple Nintendo development groups are jumping ships, citing the same reason. Rare and SK both are gone now, Factor 5 doesn't have an exclusivity agreement anymore either.

Nintendo's dumb-it-down approach isn't apparent until you actually PLAY these recent games. I was like you guys once, I really wanted to play Zelda, Mario, and Metroid because I grew up playing them. I went the extra mile and BOUGHT a Gamecube. And I'm telling you, it's the stupidest thing I've ever done. Those are the only decent games on the platform that don't have better versions on other platforms, and they're decent at best. As the review says, they all look great until you play them.

If you've got any kind of real intelligence, you'll tire of the lame, basic game mechanics in any modern Nintendo game. They were okay with me when I was 6 or 7, but when I'm 20 I demand more. Then again, maybe you guys would like games without any depth, who's to say?

I do know that Gamecube owners are going to buy more copies of Zelda than PS2 owners.