Do you normally play older games or new games?

[child of Thor]

ok so out of 22 voters most people dont like playing games from the last couple of years, or they prefer the older titles..........is this a sign that we the 'hard core' are being left out in the cold?

an oldish article that some may like to read link to Chris Crawford being annoyed with the mainstream games industry

He has pleanty more at his site which i heartily recommend to all people serious about their games.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by child of Thor
ok so out of 22 voters most people dont like playing games from the last couple of years, or they prefer the older titles..........is this a sign that we the 'hard core' are being left out in the cold?

I'm sorry CoT but it's foolish to expect anything else from that poll. People haven't always played very recent games, and sometimes cannot even if they want to. To draw a conclusion that recent games are forsaking the 'hard core' seems questionable.

[child of Thor]

I know, thats why i did a winking smilie In a place like poly where people who love civ(even as a civ3 newbie, you will find out about the first games) go , i wouldn't expect any other result of the poll - we are by definition of just being here, those 'hard core' gamers - well most of us.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
The scientist in me approves of your attempts at quantification. I would add again I am talking about the proportion of casual gamers in the stock of total PC gamers though, so some of your points are still beside the point. I will concede that the trend I believe exists has levelled off in recent years, as the saturation point in the PC market has been approached, but I would say that, although there might have been a drop in the rate of change, the direction is still upwards. I'm talking negative second derivatives not first.

Since your main objection is whether or not the trend has been continuing since 2001 then maybe we can agree it has slowed down but is still continuing at a lesser rate. After all even in a relatively saturated market some people are first time owners, like my gran a couple of years ago. I don't see any justification for believing in a peak in 2001 followed by a fall, though as I say I can see your arguements could quite easily be consistent with a fall in the rate of change.

Oh i dont say that the proportion of casual gamers peaked in 2001. I was referring only to the casual game genre as peaking then - thinking Sims, RCT, etc. As you point out, casual gaming is bigger than the casual game genre.

Yes saturation still allows for new sales - the teenager (or younger) getting a new PC for the first time, etc. Not much of late adopting luddites though. A few, but not many. I really dont think Firaxis had your grand in mind when designing Civ3 and the youngsters should be non-gamers, casual gamers, middle level gamers, and hard core gamers in about the same props as the base (well leaving aside the games available, consoles, etc)

Which brings us to the big changes of the last few years. I know a family where the adults are essentially luddites - the dad is computer illiterate - the mom uses the PC for email. They have 3 PCs (theyre fairly affluent) The kids mainly use the PCs for online stuff, having outgrown educational and kids games. The games the kids play are what I would call lacking in depth, from the extent I've seen them. So, an addition to casual gaming on the PC? NOT AT ALL!!! All the mindless (AFAICT) gaming they do is on either their Playstation, or their Gamecube. Not to mention that one of the kids is virtually hooked to his Gameboy 24/7.

Now we dont yet have How to be a millionaire on console, although I think the SIms is headed in that direction.


Now again, I know a family that has a PC and no consoles. Their sum total of games is RCT and Who wants to be a Millionaire. Unlike the family above, which buys lots of (console) games, this latter family simply doesnt buy enough games to really impact the market, not even if there are millions more like them.

The BIG market for mindless gaming is likely to be the console (whether or not deep games are also available for it)

[DrSpike]

CoT: Ok.

To go off on a tangent TBS is a strange beast. It is one of those genres that, whilst it can benefit from better AI, has not much to reap from other technological improvements. I would be far more amenable to some of the arguments made here if they were made specifically for TBS instead of in a general setting.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike


and sometimes cannot even if they want to. To draw a conclusion that recent games are forsaking the 'hard core' seems questionable.

Played "Quicken" last night, and it will be months at least before i play "pick the PC", I think.

But IF I had the latest hardware, Im QUITE sure that id quickly drop PG2 and Imp2 for Victoria, Simcity4, et al.

So I agree with Dr Spike.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Oh i dont say that the proportion of casual gamers peaked in 2001. I was referring only to the casual game genre as peaking then - thinking Sims, RCT, etc. As you point out, casual gaming is bigger than the casual game genre.

Well I did try to make the point several times that you had misinterpreted my earlier post as regarding casual games when in fact I was talking about casual gamers as a proportion of the total.

[Ljube]

Originally posted by DrSpike
... PC games today are aimed more at the casual gamer than at any other time in the past...

What's a casual gamer?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
CoT: Ok.

To go off on a tangent TBS is a strange beast. It is one of those genres that, whilst it can benefit from better AI, has not much to reap from other technological improvements. I would be far more amenable to some of the arguments made here if they were made specifically for TBS instead of in a general setting.

Well you can crunch alot more numbers in a given period of time now then you could 6 years ago. Of course that could tempt folks to add in the kitchen sink instead of designing an elegant game (is that not what happened with MOO3 to some extent?) The games that come to mind are of course the Paradox series, thougth theyre technically RT.

Question to game experts and techies: Could say EU2 have been released for the hardware generally available 5 years before it was actually released?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike


Well I did try to make the point several times that you had misinterpreted my earlier post as regarding casual games when in fact I was talking about casual gamers as a proportion of the total.

Yeah, but I still think that actual presence of casual games in the market is a decent indicator of the presence of casual gamers.


"Hey, Pa, now we've finally gotten a PC to email the kids, why dont we buy a game?"
"Yeah Ma, maybe we could buy a game based on a popular TV game show, or one about building Golf courses - you know how I love golf!"
"Nah, Pa, I think we should buy Civ 3 now that they've dumbed it down. And I hear the recent FPS' arent as deep as the old ones used to be"

[DrSpike]

Some of the paradox games would for sure have been impossible 5 years ago.

[child of Thor]

LotM,

I think deep down you miss that 'hole punch' game you used to play (i dont really mean it of course)

Tonight i will be playing Magic The Gathering(Microprose)[1990ish?], having just re-discovered it recently(like i hadn't played it for over ten years!), it is relegating my fancy mainstream xbox games to collecting dust

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by child of Thor
LotM,

I think deep down you miss that 'hole punch' game you used to play (i dont really mean it of course)

oh, I dont dislike proving things with numbers on computers - Love that! Just a lot easier since you dont need to run cards through a key punch machine, to tell the computer to do something. (you miskeyed one letter - oh sorry, you have to toss the card and type it out again, no way to erase a hole. Wait, you didnt actually find that there was an error till your the computer got around to running your batch job sorry! Now you have to go back through your whole pile of cards to be sure where the error was. Oh, and there could be an error just cause the cards got out of order.
Compare that to the tools available today!!!)