2 different kinds of gamers?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by CygnusZ

It is interesting how video games, in the very least, reflect our value system.

It is interesting how you can make them fit your value system, you mean.


Besides, everyone knows that Communism is the best government in Civ.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jamski


Yes. Most games are just a veneer of "style" over a real mathematical, logical or geometrical framework which is the actual game. I HATE to play games where I'm told "The unit is quite fast with good rate of fire." I LOVE to play games where I'm told the unit moves 5 hexes in 4 seconds and fires once every 2.5 seconds. Yes, I was the kid that took his dad's watch apart to see how it worked. For me the real game is the play of the numbers, and the increadable way the human brain can work it all out WITHOUT ACTUALLY CALCULATING IT to get a good result. Dune 2 REALLY IS the same game as Warcraft 3. Just some of the variables contain different values.

-Jam

Yes, in some sense its all number crunching. So what? thats true of combat mission, TOAW, SM Gettysburg, etc just as much as its true of Civ or SMAC. Would BR say that SMG was just a thin veneer over a mathematical model??? Yet it was. the difference is that in that case the mathematical model was specifically developed to reflect a concrete historical situation. To chance SMG to say, a model of WW2 tactics would require major changes to the underlying mathematics. Well my argument is that the Civ2 model, is a model of the development and competition of civilizations. A very beer and pretzely one to be sure - but inevitably so, for an accurate one would be unplayable. Civ3 changed the model - IIUC, making it in someways more accurate, in some ways less so.

And of course the way some people thought it became more accurate to me made it LESS accurate. The introduction of unique units. To one way of thinking, UUs and civ attributes made the game more realistic, since things were assured to end up more like they really did. To my way of thinking they made it less realistic - if you understand WHY they made it less realistic, you understand my way of thinking.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jamski


I wouldn't disagree with that. But being based on a "Tory historical ideal" doesn't make a game historical. How CAN it be historical if it has no actual history in it?

well actually a whiggish historical ideal, IIUC, but i could be wrong Then its a question of semantics. Its not a historical game, but it is a game that teaches you important things about history, things that are probably more important than the armor slope on a T-34 tank

[Jamski]

*giggles* I think its Tory.
The progress of the human race to its ultimate victory and domination of the "lesser" nations... Civ3 will raise a nation of conservatives.

-Jam

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Zero
nah that fall under competition/challenge/sportmanship.
after all, perfection is a competition agst urself and challenge to you.

You still miss one -- those who play to win, at all costs.

[Jamski]

"At all costs" as in cheaters?

They certainly should be a sub-catagory.

-Jam

[Urban Ranger]

If cheating is what it takes...

[Zero]

hmmm maybe im too stubborn to change my original theory, but i would put them in

Ones who play for competition:

or ones who play to escape realism (Theyre really losers so they cheat to escape the fact they suck)

Heck, actually one could cheat for recreation too i guess. Power-trip? or see other ppl that play fairly suffer...

hmmmm. seems like im trying too hard to stay with my original category.

[Jamski]

How about people that "cheat" to make the game harder (i.e. editing SMAC to improve the AI, and only building one base) Where do they fit in?

-Jam

[Zero]

i dont htink theyre cheaters then. They would defintely fall under challenge/competition category.

I dont see them as any different from me playing street fighter with my toes (yes i have a playstation controller just for that... cause no one else wants to use it afterwards).

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Zero

I dont see them as any different from me playing street fighter with my toes

I used to do that, many many years ago...

[Urban Ranger]

[Dis]

and then you have gamers like me who want more gratuitous sex and nudity in games.

[Jamski]

That's all gamers, Diss. It goes without saying. Every kind of gamer is united in this desire. Even those who will now post to deny it are secretly looking for more sex and nudity in games.

-Jam

[Urban Ranger]

Speak for yourself