Bush sure taught North Korea an important lesson

[yavoon]

umm mobius I dont think u need the US to invade iraq to get evidence taht once u acquire nuclear weapons ppl take ur psychotic/bruta/repressive gov't more seriously.

i dont see how the US actually doing something is wrong cuz some other thug now sees that he is in danger. and more to the pt, north korea wanted them neway, this is nothing more than a passive justification.

[Wtiberon]

North Korea has learned the lesson 'Don't mess with the U.S.' They are already conceding demands in order to reopen dialogue between NK and the US. They said they are willing to discuss their Nuclear Weapsons program and the recently reactivated nuclear power plant. Besides Bush didn't teach the world that powerful weapons make a powerful deterrant...they've know that for generations

[Sava]

I won't argue the fact that Clinton's policy was unsuccessful, I simply wanted to point out that the peacenik accusations were false. Clinton's doctrine prevented an increase in tensions. Bush has set us on the course for possibly a nuclear exchange.

[Canuck]

Originally posted by Sava
I won't argue the fact that Clinton's policy was unsuccessful, I simply wanted to point out that the peacenik accusations were false.

Fair enough

I wasn't accusing Clinton of being an out and out peacenik. I do however think he failed to use force in situations which desperately needed it.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Wtiberon
North Korea has learned the lesson 'Don't mess with the U.S.' They are already conceding demands in order to reopen dialogue between NK and the US. They said they are willing to discuss their Nuclear Weapsons program and the recently reactivated nuclear power plant. Besides Bush didn't teach the world that powerful weapons make a powerful deterrant...they've know that for generations

North Korea knows how powerful the US is. The whole "don't mess with the US" thing is stupid. Kim Jong Il is probably off-his-rocker. Crazy people cannot be deterred by a show of force. And plus, the memory of the stalemate war in Korea is much stronger than anything the US does in some desert, halfway across the world. I'll celebrate the day Jong Il dies. But since he's alive and in control of nuclear weapons, I'd just assume not provoke him.

[Spiffor]

Oerdin is right :
NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault anymore than Clinton's, anymore than Reagan's, or anymore than Mao's. They are Kim Sr. and Jr.'s fault.

However, this thread has a point : the US shows it is willing to use its power without restraint on harmless countries that don't play by the rules. These harmless countries have either to abide by the rules, or to stop being harmless by using a significant portion of their resources into building nukes.

Actually, I think that iran's nuclear program would be much less funded if the reformists had some legitimacy by saying "these funds should rather go to the economy". Bush's behaviour gives much more legitimacy to those who want the Nuclear program to be finished and operational ASAP.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Wtiberon
North Korea has learned the lesson 'Don't mess with the U.S.' They are already conceding demands in order to reopen dialogue between NK and the US. They said they are willing to discuss their Nuclear Weapsons program and the recently reactivated nuclear power plant. Besides Bush didn't teach the world that powerful weapons make a powerful deterrant...they've know that for generations

You are truly a master of international relations and diplomacy.

You really think that DPRK is "conceding" grounds to the US? So far, the US hasn't gotten anything it wanted, while the North Koreans have already gotten the US to resume food shipment. They know that playing hardball all the time is counterproductive.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Oerdin is right :
NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault anymore than Clinton's, anymore than Reagan's, or anymore than Mao's. They are Kim Sr. and Jr.'s fault.

I agree 100%. NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault. The level of tension is Bush's fault. Oh and BTW, a practice of negotiation and level-headed thinking has worked to curb a possible nuclear conflict. It was called the Cold War. When nukes are involved, hesitation, concession, and patience helps keep the peace. A cowboy attitude only gets people killed and leaves the world glowing in the dark.

[yavoon]

spiffor this is all very apologist. much in the same vein as "if we do somethign against terrorism we will get more terorrists"

it not only becries circular reasoning and a general lack of backbone. but its also coddling the idea that repressive regimes have the same rights as free and stable democracies. or that these regimes in someway were peaceful before we decided to maybe take action against some of them.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You really think that DPRK is "conceding" grounds to the US?

They've already given up thier demand for talks only with the US.

[Sava]

Originally posted by yavoon
spiffor this is all very apologist. much in the same vein as "if we do somethign against terrorism we will get more terorrists"

it not only becries circular reasoning and a general lack of backbone. but its also coddling the idea that repressive regimes have the same rights as free and stable democracies. or that these regimes in someway were peaceful before we decided to maybe take action against some of them.

Why is it that this is reduced to "My way or the high way"? In the range of tools a statesmen could use to solve a problem, violence and inaction aren't the only ones available.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Spiffor
NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault anymore than Clinton's, anymore than Reagan's, or anymore than Mao's. They are Kim Sr. and Jr.'s fault.

I have to disagree with that.

The US foreign policy has always been hostile to communist countries after WWII. In fact, it hasn't been friendly to any countries with governments that don't bow to US interests.
The US will do anything within its power to topple those governments, peaceful or violent, fair or foul, by hook or by crook.

Iraq, Venezuela, Cuba, Grenada, the list keeps going.

The Kims just want to avoid such a fate.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
They've already given up thier demand for talks only with the US.

Are you going to quote me out of context?

[Sava]

UR: Despite my agreeing with you on the US and it's foreign policy (BTW, the US was hostile to Communism since they supported the White Russians during the Russian Revolution), I think that NK would have nukes regardless.

[Spiffor]

Yavoon :
In my previous post, it is not actions taken against repressive governments that I criticized. It was hostile action. Something needs to be done, I agree on you with that.

But the course of action taken by the Bush admin wasn't the right course.