A few questions for fellow atheists

[KrazyHorse]

I avoid arguing too much with believers unless they're really annoying (prosetylizing or with beliefs that rub me the wrong way).

One of the smartest guys I know is a serious Christian. I'vve had one argument about religion with him in the 5 years I've known him, and it remained very good natured. That might be because we agreed on basically everything, though.

"You can't prove that God exists"
"I know"
"Good. And you agree that if we were to study the problem scientifically you would conclude that God probably doesn't exist?"
"Yup. But I don't believe in God for reasons that would be generally subject to scientific scrutiny, as they're very personal and subjective"
"Oh, I completely understand that"

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I argue that what if some African or Southamerican native tribe never hears of jesus in their life they are not saved? It's not their fault that "information" never reached them. He argued that missionaries would find them. I said he had no proof that that would happen.

IIRC, there is a Catholic doctrine that if a person has never heard of Jesus before he dies, he would automatically be saved. Something like that.

That means, Urg and Oog, prehistoric cavemen, are up in heaven now.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm not sure what the modern doctrine is, but IIRC in medieval times the belief was that virtuous heathens would end up in Limbo (part of hell, but the part where you just wander around forever instead of being tortured)

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
As far as I can see, Christian morality is frightening because it requires an external threat to impose the code. All this talks of fear of god and hell as punishment.

That's an interesting take, but people who discover something to be morally wrong will continue to observe that even after the enforcer is removed. If there were no significant authority above me, even God, I would still not do a lot of things because I view them as immoral. Likewise, somebody who believes in God who loses that faith is not generally going to go out and commit sins even after they lose that belief, as they will still regard those things as morally wrong.

My point is, while authority figures like God may be the creator of moral codes in the minds of many people, these codes will not vanish if they are convinced that God does not exist. Moral religion is thus valuable regardless of truth in many situations.

I really think that, if most religious people were faced truthfully with Jack's question, they still would not commit any atrocity because they would still conceive of it as wrong.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Frogger
I'm not sure what the modern doctrine is, but IIRC in medieval times the belief was that virtuous heathens would end up in Limbo (part of hell, but the part where you just wander around forever instead of being tortured)

That's what I referred to when I said they would "not be saved" I don't know much about religion so I don't know the name of that middle ground (purgatory?) in which you're not being tortured but you're not jumping around with Elizabeth Hurley naked...

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by cyclotron7

I really think that, if most religious people were faced truthfully with Jack's question, they still would not commit any atrocity because they would still conceive of it as wrong.

Yep. Which proves once more that religion is not that useful but to overcome a personal emptiness...

[KrazyHorse]

Purgatory is different.

Purgatory is where you go while you're paying for venial sins in order to end up in Heaven.

Hell is where you go if you haven't been saved or have committed a mortal sin and haven't been forgiven by God through confession.

[KrazyHorse]

Limbo is part of hell.

[Frogman]

Urban Ranger

I'm a chemical engineer, so I've had all the thermodynamics anyone ever needs. Sure its a big system, but I never could figure out why they said that eventually the whole universe was headed for a state where everything would be evenly dispersed and break down over time. Two things always seemed to me to work against this principle. One is Life the other is gravity. As smart as we think we are, and as well as we think we understand the workings of gravity, we still don't know what the hell it is. Life is even trickier.

The fact that life gets more complex, not less, certainly does defy the logic of entropy which would suggest things break down, lose information, move to lower energy states. In the big picture, I know this must be true, but why is it that there is this one area that advances in the opposite direction?

I know we'll never get the answer. It doesn't stop the question though. I'm nominally a Christian, I know all the dogma, and I think there is some truth there. Sadly they still don't know crap about God either.

Here's my view of evolution in a nutshell. The laws that govern the universe made life possible under certain conditions, and wherever those conditions are met, life will form. There is a dna blueprint that starts at the cellular level. That dna changes on a timetable triggered by both environmental factors or perhaps even a counter. Once the dna change is triggered, a process of change takes place that is not dependent on chance but rather on an endpoint that will once again be stable.

I think humans will change at some point. Some factor will induce the trigger to change us and over the course of a few thousand years, we will become different. These changes are designed and predetermined and may happen to several populations at once.

You can throw God in there or not. You can shoot the crap out of my theory, I'm only guessing. I just see a lot more order and planning in this whole process than chance would seem to allow.

from frogger

"Yup. But I don't believe in God for reasons that would be generally subject to scientific scrutiny, as they're very personal and subjective"

yup, no problem with that. Logic doesn't point me to God, He just embodies all the unknowns I can't explain and in the end I believe there is a plan. His Plan. I'm comfortable with that.

Regarding purgatory, it was made up by St. Francis I think. There is no Biblical basis for such a belief. Of course that doesn't stop it. Many if not most protestant faiths don't profess a belief in purgatory.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Frogman

yup, no problem with that. Logic doesn't point me to God, He just embodies all the unknowns I can't explain and in the end I believe there is a plan. His Plan. I'm comfortable with that.

Why do you feel the need to embody all the unknowns in a deity? Why not just accept they are unknowns and will be until someone finds a scientific answer to it, which of course may be never. Its so much easier since 1) as a rational human being you are puting fact (an unknown exists and we don't know the answer) over fiction (an unknown exists so we'll just invent a suitable answer).

I find it difficult to understand why some people just don't accept the unknown.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Frogman
Regarding purgatory, it was made up by St. Francis I think. There is no Biblical basis for such a belief. Of course that doesn't stop it. Many if not most protestant faiths don't profess a belief in purgatory.

I was discussing Catholic thology, not Biblical sources.

Even most mainstream Protestant thology contains a multitude of practices and beliefs not expressly referenced in the Bible.

EDIT: why did I spell theology twice in a row without an "e"

[Shi Huangdi]

Not an atheist, but i'll still go up for an argument against the fundies....

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by NeOmega I used to confront Christians, but now only during debates about politics, especially when it comes to victimless crimes, do I bring in the forced Judeo-Christian values thing. I have yet to discuss religion's impact on this war... allthough beleive me, my mom is ultra Christian, and she thinks Islam is evil and that they worship the moon.....

Nice one!

You have utilised the ultimate weapon against christians...LOGIC.
They ought to save their minds before trying to save their 'souls'....

Also, I would mention to your mother that in history, no people have never tried to kill or conquer in the name of the moon.

Anyhoo, good call,
I respect your stance on this, Mr NeOmega.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Master Zen I find it difficult to understand why some people just don't accept the unknown.

Same here.

They have fear, primitive fear...

Science will cure it.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by curtsibling

Science will cure it.

I'm not sure you read my rant on the last page but I ended it with a quote which I always tell my "believer" friends

"The only way to make a believer lose his faith is if God himself comes up to them and tells them He doesn't exist".

I also hope science will cure it, but I doubt it.