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The Apolyton Science Fiction Book Club: Ender's Game

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  • #16
    Ender's Game is vastly overrated IMO. It's not a bad book, it just wasn't all that great. Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. Speaker and Xenocide were better though.
    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
    -Bokonon

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    • #17
      "For the most part, I think Card handles children characters well, although I think he could have toned it down a bit in certain areas."

      Children characters? There were children in this book? Where?*

      No, what you had were really short, really young adults. I don't think that any of the characters in this book acted like children - I don't care how smart you are, even 6 year old geniuses do not understand psychology to the degree that Ender used it in his initial fight with Stillson.

      And the idea that two children can come to dominate the worlds political scene ala Peter and Valentine is, well, preposterous. I don't know any adults who can consistantly and believably argue against their own beliefs and nature, much less do so to such an extent as to rise to power based upon this falsity**.

      Card doesn't handle children well at all - what he does is have child-aged characters act like adults, which, frankly, is kind of pathetic. But this is something that is quite common in science fiction - the molding of different types of people so that they all sound adult and male. As I'm sitting here, the only believable children as children in science fiction that I can remember*** is in Vernor Vinge's A Fire upon the Deep. Yes, they were smart, but they were also helpless and knowledgable of their own limitations because of their relative immaturity.

      *I'm speaking of EG only, as I have yet to read the sequels.
      **Is that a word?
      ***I'm sure there are others. Any suggestions?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by JohnT
        "For the most part, I think Card handles children characters well, although I think he could have toned it down a bit in certain areas."

        Children characters? There were children in this book? Where?*

        No, what you had were really short, really young adults. I don't think that any of the characters in this book acted like children - I don't care how smart you are, even 6 year old geniuses do not understand psychology to the degree that Ender used it in his initial fight with Stillson.
        I think there are children-like characters in the novel, but for the most part they unfortunatey are not the main characters.

        Would you not say it is possible for a child to make the sort of psychological calculations Ender made, at least on the subconscious level? The fact that Card articulates within Ender's mind makes them seem less than likely, but is that really true? Surely children understand that if they are bullied, they must win the fight or continue to be bullied.

        It's no stretch to think that a genius would realize he had to win it big, especially given the torture he endured under Peter. And given that Valentine seems to hint at sexual molestation by Peter, I'm not sure why she follows him so readily, given her genius state.


        And the idea that two children can come to dominate the worlds political scene ala Peter and Valentine is, well, preposterous. I don't know any adults who can consistantly and believably argue against their own beliefs and nature, much less do so to such an extent as to rise to power based upon this falsity**.
        Yes, I think this subplot was unnecessary, if not downright ludicrous. Beyond ludicrous, in fact. Ender was at least believable because he had the battle school to shape his mind. But how does Peter go from torturing squirrels to conceiving and executing such a plan? It does not follow.


        Card doesn't handle children well at all - what he does is have child-aged characters act like adults, which, frankly, is kind of pathetic. But this is something that is quite common in science fiction - the molding of different types of people so that they all sound adult and male. As I'm sitting here, the only believable children as children in science fiction that I can remember*** is in Vernor Vinge's A Fire upon the Deep. Yes, they were smart, but they were also helpless and knowledgable of their own limitations because of their relative immaturity.
        I think most authors don't handle children well, but science fiction is a genre particularly unsuited to dealing with them, as the only place they typically have in these novels is as "advanced" children a la Ender, or Alia from Dune.

        I really can't think of a sci-fi novel that handles children well, but I hace no children of my own, and don't really care from them in the first place, so perhaps I am a poor judge.
        "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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        • #19
          Originally posted by St Leo
          I found Card's excuse for the low female contingent ("centuries of evolution working against them") very flimsy considering that I am not exactly sure which evolutionary change Card was referring to. Ender's sister didn't strike me as atypically brilliant and the actual job requirements didn't involve being able to crush beer cans with your elbow joints.
          Perhaps as a devout Morman, Card has trouble seeing a woman in a leadership role.
          Last edited by Static Universe; April 5, 2003, 19:39.
          "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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          • #20
            I am sort of surprised about the direction that this thread has turned

            I would be more interested in a discussion of som eof the psych issues dealt with int he book

            Jon Miller
            Jon Miller-
            I AM.CANADIAN
            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jon Miller
              I am sort of surprised about the direction that this thread has turned


              I would be more interested in a discussion of som eof the psych issues dealt with int he book
              What are your thoughts on the psychological issues addressed in the book?
              "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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              • #22
                Actually I'm interested in the literary aspect - this book was originally a short story (which I have not read) and then expanded to this. I'm wondering what the differences are.

                Was the whole "battle is real" thing foreshadowed a lot and obvious or did I jump the gun? I don't remember if there were clues in the book or I remember someone talking about it but when it was finally explained it seemed incredibly obvious.

                Which was your favorite part of the book? Favorite narrator (or third person)?

                I really liked the military guy in charge of Ender (forgive me - I read the series over Winter Break and can't remember who the name). The best parts to me were the descriptions of tactics and the deep pschyological stuff going on with Ender and the game.

                BTW, I hate Bean with a passion when Card decides to change the entire meaning of Ender's Game. Seriously, you might as well not read Ender's Game if the Bean Chronicles are the "true" intrepretations that Card implies. I liked some of the themes from the rest of the series and found the planetary sytem very plausible.
                I never know their names, But i smile just the same
                New faces...Strange places,
                Most everything i see, Becomes a blur to me
                -Grandaddy, "The Final Push to the Sum"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by MacTBone

                  Was the whole "battle is real" thing foreshadowed a lot and obvious or did I jump the gun? I don't remember if there were clues in the book or I remember someone talking about it but when it was finally explained it seemed incredibly obvious.
                  I guessed shortly before the end, but I knew there was a surprise ending so I was looking for it. But really I wouldn't say it was a big "Crying Game" kind of twist, and it actually made a lot of sense. On the other hand, it was a pretty big risk to take, as Ender could have quit the game at anytime not thinking it was real.

                  Of course, he never quit games, but still...

                  Which was your favorite part of the book? Favorite narrator (or third person)?
                  I liked the Razer Mackham character. I thought it was quite inventive to have him show up as Ender's final teacher. Plus, I'm a sucker for the old "character you thought long dead shows up alive" kind of thing.

                  I really liked the military guy in charge of Ender (forgive me - I read the series over Winter Break and can't remember who the name). The best parts to me were the descriptions of tactics and the deep pschyological stuff going on with Ender and the game.
                  You mean Graff? I liked this character as well. I feel he genuinely cared about Ender, but had to do what was necessary to save the human race. He became quite a sympathetic character toward the end.

                  BTW, I hate Bean with a passion when Card decides to change the entire meaning of Ender's Game. Seriously, you might as well not read Ender's Game if the Bean Chronicles are the "true" intrepretations that Card implies. I liked some of the themes from the rest of the series and found the planetary sytem very plausible.
                  I'm reading Ender's Shadow now. While it's an enjoyable book, I'm rapidly begining to hate Bean. I hated him before, but now I really, really hate him.
                  "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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                  • #24
                    sometimes when authors (either the original or others) go back to old work and expand on it

                    it seems as if they are writing a different story

                    it seems to be the same with this one unforunately

                    as for what my thoughts are, I don't have the time right now to lead a converation, so I will chime in if people start getting into psych/ethics/morality

                    Jon Miller
                    Jon Miller-
                    I AM.CANADIAN
                    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                    • #25
                      "Would you not say it is possible for a child to make the sort of psychological calculations Ender made, at least on the subconscious level? The fact that Card articulates within Ender's mind makes them seem less than likely, but is that really true? Surely children understand that if they are bullied, they must win the fight or continue to be bullied."

                      Children are capable of all sort of involved psychological calculations - even my 18 month-old daughter "plays" me and her mother differently. I even will allow that the sort of consideration that Ender gave Stillson might be possible by a 6 year old, but I doubt that a child, any child, would be able to articulate it in the manner that Ender did. But perhaps that's just a limitation of the medium and not the author.

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                      • #26
                        Mac: I, too, guessed the ending before the ending. But it was not because Card dropped clues (he could've but I missed them if he did), but rather my thought processes went like this:

                        "I thought this was a self-contained novel? We're about 50 pages from the end and the kid is still in Battle School playing on the simulator... oh, wait."

                        I, too, liked the Mackham character. When done with the book, I was actually more interested in what Peter had done than what Ender accomplished. Perhaps I oughtta tackle the sequels after all.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JohnT

                          But perhaps that's just a limitation of the medium and not the author.
                          I would agree that it is. I think Card is trying really hard to present children accurately here, unlike a writer like say J.D. Salenger who presents them as he wishes them to be.

                          And I hate Bean.
                          "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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                          • #28
                            Are there any Morman ideas in this book? I didn't notice any, but reading Ender's Shadow, it definitely seems like a few get passed off in that book. Not that I'm any expert of Mormanism.
                            "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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                            • #29
                              And given that Valentine seems to hint at sexual molestation by Peter, I'm not sure why she follows him so readily, given her genius state.

                              Wha; wha; wha? I am normally the first (and sometimes only) one to notice things like that. What hints?

                              Was the whole "battle is real" thing foreshadowed a lot and obvious or did I jump the gun?

                              I had read Ender's Shadow about a year before this, so I knew what was coming.

                              unlike a writer like say J.D. Salenger who presents them as he wishes them to be.
                              And I hate Bean.


                              I hate Salinger. Bean's a swell chap.
                              Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by St Leo
                                And given that Valentine seems to hint at sexual molestation by Peter, I'm not sure why she follows him so readily, given her genius state.

                                Wha; wha; wha? I am normally the first (and sometimes only) one to notice things like that. What hints?
                                Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but here is the relevant passage I'm referring to (p241 of the paperback):


                                "When you were little and Peter tortured you, it's a good thing I didn't lie back and wait for Mom and Dad to save you. They never understood how dangerous Peter was. I knew you had the monitor, but I didn't wait for them , either. Do you know what Peter used to do to me because I stopped him from hurting you?"

                                "Shut up," Ender whispered.
                                "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the paper, Fifteen years ago" - John Prine

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