Anti-Semitism in France

[Eli]

Except one Christian, all people I know (including me) are annoyed with Israel to some extent. I don't think I know any antisemit.

And many people get this all confused. The French media is vehemently anti-Israeli, almost as much as the Arab media, and this is partially responsible for making anti-semitism more and more legit.

[Daz]

Well Eli. I hope you DONT know too much about J.M. LePen. Throughout the years he has left quite a antisemitic legacy in France and I can guarantee you he's the inspiration of antisemits of all races and colours.

Spain, and Italy too, have a large muslim immigration too. Why doesnt that kind of stuff happen there?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Eli
And many people get this all confused. The French media is vehemently anti-Israeli, almost as much as the Arab media, and this is partially responsible for making anti-semitism more and more legit.

The French media evolves. During the first intifada, it was clearly pro-Israel, as far as my cloudy memories can tell (I recall being surprised, at that time, the Israelis could do bad things).
It has become clearly anti-Israel when Netanyauh (sp?) took power, and the anti-Israelness has abated when Barak came. In the meantime, Arafat was hardly criticized, despite its terrorist background and the massive corruption of his adminitration : while Israel became criticized for about everything which deserved critics, the Palestinians were considered as victims, and nothing more.
For several years now, the trend seems to go towards a more balanced view : the vicious violence of the intifada has been an eye-opener the Arabs aren't only victims, they are also guilty of this sh*t. The media remains pro-Palestinian, but now is able to citicize terrorists. I've seen this turn in Euronews (located in France, and the commentaries vary from language to kanguage anyways) : before 2001, the news were outrageously pro-Palestinian. From mid 2001 on, it became much, much more balanced. I guess there have been many complaints from the Jewish public of the network, and they have worked.

[Spiffor]

Daz :
You are overestimating Le Pen's impact on antisemitism in France. His comments of the past (racist puns, gaz chambers being a "detail" etc.) have been used by the Politicians as a concrete counter-example : Le Pen got the media coverage he wanted, but he united everybody opposed to racism, whether slightly or not (it explains why Chirac was elected with 82% against Le Pen : in no other elections had a candidate such a triumph).

Eli is right when he complains about the media : despite their positive evolution (at least those I percieve), the media remain clearly pro-Palestinian today. But the krux of the problem isn't the media at large, it is the specific messages the Muslim youth gets : gangsta culture, Islamists, and first of all, their peers, all of this builds a counter-culture in which antisemitism seems to be a new part.
I sure hope this counter culture will be destroyed by a wise policy in the future, but I don't hold my breath.

[August Borms]

Originally posted by Daz
Spain, and Italy too, have a large muslim immigration too. Why doesnt that kind of stuff happen there?

Belgium and the Netherlands have a large muslim population and that kind of stuff happens quite a lot here too.

[Daz]

The Nederlands have (oops, HAD) that right wing guy too, cant remember his name. But he got assasinated...

Hey, dont get me wrong here. Im not advocating the muslims here. Believe me, I'm competely the wrong person for that .

What peasses me off is that people like LePen get a break, and they do not deserve to. It seems you can get away with racism if youre a white european, but if youre a muslim youre immediately a terrorist.

Eli, remember. It is NOT the muslims who have taken the most jewish lives... Know thy enemies!!!

[Spiffor]

Daz :
Le Pen didn't get a break last time. He scored the lowest a candidate ever had in a runoff during presidential elections. Huge protests mobilized the youth, White, Black and Arabic. Le Pen is remembered as a vicious racist, but his racism is mostly headed towards the Arabs and Blacks.

The anti-arab racism is more important than antisemitism in France, by far. The very reason a strong Muslim counter-culture exists in France, is because of the rejection of Arabs by the society : discrimination when hiring, discrimination when renting a flat, more harassment from the police, lower education, prejudices in most circumstances etc. The Arabs have muuuuuuuuuch more a hard time in France than the jews, and anti-Arab racists get criticized very often.

It doesn't make the young antisemitic muslims better, or it doesn't make them irresponsible for their racism. Believing the Muslims were only victims, and weren't guilty as well, helped in creating this situation.

[Daz]

Well he did get into the 2nd round didnt he? As opposed to Jospin... I still think it was a disgrace for France.

I would like to remind you what my initial post was about.

Well if you have a Jean Marie LePen as a political power, what do you expect?

I still think LePen is the ispiration for all the rasists in France, regardless of colour and religion. His "works" about the holocaust only made him an antisemite too.

[Az]

Spiffor: I am glad you see it that way. thumbs up on most the things you've said, and a big thumbs down on the case.

Btw, did anyone hear about a number of jewish youths that were beaten during an "anti-war" ( ) demonstration in France?

[Spiffor]

I heard two Jews were beaten during the big protest last Saturnday (100.000 protestors). I was in the protest, though I haven't seen the agressions.
There was a small group of Arabs seemingly pro-Saddam (their signs was in Arabic, I couldn't read). I've also seen fliers about waging the intifada from Baghdad to Paris But these elements were marginal nonetheless. If you want to have my complete impressions of Saturnday's protest in Paris, go check this post.

[Az]

What worries and disturbs me is the willingness of the socialists to join forces with muslims, just to protest against America.

Nazis hate the USA too ( being controlled by jews, and all ), should we cooperate with them too?

[Daz]

I can certainly understand the jews forgetting about his old "crimes" in light of his latest interview in the Ha'aretz newspaper. Le Pen has shifted his hatred from Jews to Arabs and is not afraid saying it. One of his famous quotes on the muslim veil "it protects us from ugly women" says it all. I reckon you guys feel he's your pal all of a sudden.

[Az]

God, that's a crappy troll, that reveals your true face of bigotry.

I can certainly understand the jews forgetting about his old "crimes" in light of his latest interview in the Ha'aretz newspaper. Le Pen has shifted his hatred from Jews to Arabs and is not afraid saying it. One of his famous quotes on the muslim veil "it protects us from ugly women" says it all. I reckon you guys feel he's your pal all of a sudden.

There is no sizeable part of the jewish population that supports LePen, but even if there were,It's amazing, really, that you accuse someone of being a racist, while at the same time, you generalize, and lump all the jews together into a single group.

[VetLegion]

What worries and disturbs me is the willingness of the socialists to join forces with muslims, just to protest against America.

European lefties in general are a weird sort in that regard. Enemy of my enemy..
There was simmilar support for Milosevic in Serbia, just because he was opposing US. Learn to live with the fenomenon

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Azazel
What worries and disturbs me is the willingness of the socialists to join forces with muslims, just to protest against America.

Nazis hate the USA too ( being controlled by jews, and all ), should we cooperate with them too?

This is the downside of a consensus. It sure disturbs me to know Le Pen is against the war too (as nearly the whole French political class). But I cannot decide in his place. Many people, including not likeable people, will go to a big rally once they know of it. That's why we have vandals, and that's why we have antisemits. France's #1 antiracist organization asked the parties heavily involved in the protests to be more paedagogic. My party didn't see what went wrong with us, yet.